tweed pro vs super vs twin vs bandmaster? What to build next?

[alexwilds]

I just built a tweed Princeton clone. I really like her, but discovered on her maiden gig with the band that she just aint got the gas to keep up with the Joneses - I have to dime her just to be heard, and then she is all distortion. Well, she is my home amp. So I will build a bigger tweed - 6L6 push/pull. I expect to build from scratch this time, but will follow a standard Fender tweed schematic. Can't wait.

I am looking for much more headroom, and more punchy bass. I like simple: I don't need a bunch of different tones, just want to in the right one for plug 'n play telecaster for classic soul music. I do not need enormous volume, just enough to show the saxophones and drums who is in charge around here.

Looking at the schematics, Pro and Super and Bandmaster are all the same, and even the early Twin aint much different. Bassman looks good, too. Looks like it's mostly about speakers and cabinets, so I expect I'll build a head. But maybe there are subtleties in the circuits I am not seeing. Which way would you go? I sure would appreciate ya'll's input before I start running up bills.

Alex Wilds, north face of Mt. Fuji

 

[CapnCrunch]

The Pro, Super and Bandmaster are the same circuit, and there is a reason that they are all so sought after. It's a great circuit. Enough volume and headroom to play with a band, but not so loud as to be difficult to get to the sweet spot without pissing off all your band mates. I built a pro because I had an original 50's P15N and promptly sold the 5e3 I built as a first amp. The Pro is an absolutely killer amp, but I'd love to have a 2x10 Super as well.

The low powered Twin is considerably louder and cleaner than the trio above, (40 vs. 25ish watts) it is very similar to the 5f6a Bassman, and both of those amps are phenomenal as well. I would say you could not go wrong with any of these choices. If I were choosing, I would probably ask myself how much natural overdrive do I want from this amp. If you want the amp to be mostly clean, I'd build a low powered twin or a Bassman, if you want to be able to get some drive from the amp, then I'd probably build a 5f4 Super (because I already have a 5e5a Pro). Obviously the Twin and the Bassman are renowned for their overdriven tone as well, they are just REALLY REALLY LOUD when they give up the goods.

 

[Wally]

IMHO, the low power Twin is more in the camp of the contemporary Pro, Super and Bandmaster Amps. If you pull one of those 5U4’s out of that 5E7A Twin, it becomes very nearly the same amp. The biggest differences are the speaker’s...and the OT’s needed to accommodate those different speakers.
The 5F6A Bassman and the high power Twin are a different breed.
In this day and age, the Pro/Super/Bandmaster/5E7A Twin might be a better option. They have earlier breakup I’m than does the 5F6A Bassman....they saturate and sustain earlier at lower volumes.

 

[Obelisk]

I always liked the 2x10 Super that came with 6V6 the best. That one sounds different from the Pro or Bandmaster. I think it was the 5E4-A. Those are great for slide guitar or anything overdriven. I always liked the 5E5-A Pro quite a bit. I had one and just unplugged the 15 inch speaker and used the 8 ohm transformer to drive a 4x10 with an 8 ohm load. Glorious crunch!

 

[King Fan]

I always liked the 2x10 Super that came with 6V6 the best. That one sounds different from the Pro or Bandmaster. I think it was the 5E4-A. Those are great for slide guitar or anything overdriven. I always liked the 5E5-A Pro quite a bit. I had one and just unplugged the 15 inch speaker and used the 8 ohm transformer to drive a 4x10 with an 8 ohm load. Glorious crunch!

Yeah. I was curious if y'all experts might discuss the 2 X 6V6 vs. 6L6 option. You hear sometimes that 6V6 can be sweeter, and I notice that several fan-favorite tweed/brown amps (5g9, 5e4a, 6g3) are 6V6 'big boys.'

 

[Obelisk]

Yeah. I was curious if y'all experts might discuss the 2 X 6V6 vs. 6L6 option. You hear sometimes that 6V6 can be sweeter, and I notice that several fan-favorite tweed/brown amps (5g9, 5e4a, 6g3) are 6V6 'big boys.'

That was a friend of mine's Super. It was a really great sounding amp that he never wanted to part with. Basically a more hi-fi Tweed Deluxe. I own a 6G3 Deluxe and it definitely has a bit more crunch than the Super. The tweed Tremolux with the big cab fits in as well to a type of amp I really love-never owned unfortunately. It might be that I am just a 6V6 junkie, but that tube just sounds great for amplified guitar.

The late 50's tweed amps with 6L6 tubes also sound great obviously, but one of the best in my experience was my friend's Super with 6V6 tubes(I want to say it was a 55). They only made them for a few months when the narrow panel tweed cabinet was introduced.

To the thread starter, you have a bunch of cool amps to choose from. I would stay with the Bandmaster/Pro/Super type. Except for the output transformers, they are all pretty similar. Maybe build it as a head with multi tap output transformer so you could use it with a few different speaker configurations

 

[Wally]

I always liked the 2x10 Super that came with 6V6 the best. That one sounds different from the Pro or Bandmaster. I think it was the 5E4-A. Those are great for slide guitar or anything overdriven. I always liked the 5E5-A Pro quite a bit. I had one and just unplugged the 15 inch speaker and used the 8 ohm transformer to drive a 4x10 with an 8 ohm load. Glorious crunch!

Same circuit but for the trannies to accommodate the two different types of tubes.

That was a friend of mine's Super. It was a really great sounding amp that he never wanted to part with. Basically a more hi-fi Tweed Deluxe. I own a 6G3 Deluxe and it definitely has a bit more crunch than the Super. The tweed Tremolux with the big cab fits in as well to a type of amp I really love-never owned unfortunately. It might be that I am just a 6V6 junkie, but that tube just sounds great for amplified guitar.

The late 50's tweed amps with 6L6 tubes also sound great obviously, but one of the best in my experience was my friend's Super with 6V6 tubes(I want to say it was a 55). They only made them for a few months when the narrow panel tweed cabinet was introduced.

To the thread starter, you have a bunch of cool amps to choose from. I would stay with the Bandmaster/Pro/Super type. Except for the output transformers, they are all pretty similar. Maybe build it as a head with multi tap output transformer so you could use it with a few different speaker configurations

The Super/Pro/Bandmaster amps are much different from the Deluxes you mentioned. Both of those Deluxes have very simple tone controls which do not interfere with that preamp isignal strength...hotter. The two Deluxes...5E3 and 6G3...different the phase inverter for one big thing....the 6G3 runs a long tail pair....and that puts it closer to a 5F11 Vibrolux than to the 5E3 Deluxe. The 5E3 Deluxe runs a cathodyne phase inverter....as do the Super/Pro/Bandmaster amps we have been discussing. But....the tone stacks in these three amps differs greatly from the 5E3's simple circuit. All of these amps except the 5E3 run a fixed bias circuit...that is a big factor, too.

The tweed Tremolux.... Which one??? There are a couple of different models.....5E9 and 5G9...and they are greatly dissimilar.

I have owned....some of them in multiples....all of the amps being discussed here except the Vibrolux and Tremolux....and I have worked on those models. Tubes don't make the amp....the circuit does. Without knowing how the circuit is arranged and works, there is not much use discussing 'differences' between amps, ime. OMMV..... I have 6L6 amps that I can make sound like a 6V6 amp and viceversa. I can get jangle and chime out of a 'big' certain Fender amp that can make a Vox AC-30 owner say 'WHAT????" IT is in the circuit..not the logo and not the tube.

 

[screamin eagle]

I'm biased so I'll say Pro.

My main amp is a hot-rodded 5c5 pro that puts out closer to 28 watts (like the pro/super/bandmaster).

My practice amp is a tweed princeton 5c2 circuit with a 12" speaker and a 6l6.

 

[CoyotesGator]

Someone said 6G3?



A really versatile circuit.

In a 1X12 with an old inefficient alnico speaker for low to mid volume gigs or with a G1265 or ET65 clone for enough volume to establish dominance over that pesky sax man.

Drummer done gone nuts? Mike it.

Am I a fanboy?

Yep.

 

[Axis29]

Bigger bass? Gotta have bigger iron.

I am biased... Because I own a high powered Twin, 5f8-a. I gig with it, I practice at home with it. It is the sweetest tone I've ever experienced, period. But, if you want heavy saturation and clipping, it is rather authoritative... It is also a heavy box to lug around and get in and out of the car.

I have a '59 Bassman Reissue as well and love this amp. It is also rather loud when reaching heavy clipping levels. However, the clean is really nice and there's always a hint of hair, just like the Twin above. The incredible thing about the 4x10 set up is how it fills a space... There is no directionality to it. There is less bass authority than the Twin.

I have a 5e3 (Cox Ultimate 5e3) as well. It is very Rock and Roll. It is louder than the 12 watts that the circuit is purported to be. It is harder to get low volume sweetness from this amp, than my two bigger tweeds. Get it cooking a little and it sounds great. But, this has been my experience with most Fender 6v6 vs. 6l6 amps. I'm sure it has to do with the size of the transformers and how they handle the lower frequencies.

I have wanted a Bandmaster/Pro/Super for a good while now... I think it would be the perfect addition to my arsenal. I think, like the later 2x10 Vibroverb and even later Vibrolux Reverb, they may be a great bar sized amp. 26 watts is not crazy loud, just a little bit more oomph than a Deluxe Reverb, the 3x10/2x10/1x15 cabinet size is not crazy big or overly awkward like a 4x10 can be. They are all MUCH lighter than my Twin. And from what I hear in demos, they tend to get a little bit of hair at reasonable volume... A little edge to the clean is where I live. I like overtones and subtle richness.

 

[Antoon]

My personal take on the ideal tweed-style amp is the preamp and phase inverter of the 5f6 Bassman/5f8 high power twin and the power amp of the 5f4 tweed super, but with a dual voltage power transformer (380V/410V) for a switchable cathode/fixed bias. The cabinet is an early (smaller) 4x10 Bassman, with a 3x10 baffle and three P10Rs. Or 2xP10Q plus one C10N. I have built this amp from salvaged Fender 50s amp parts and it is the perfect amplifier for me. It would be great if Fender would offer this configuration.

 

[FiddlinJim]

I built a 5f4 with adjustable feedback resistor that makes up the difference in the Super/Pro/Bandmaster circuits plus a 4/8 ohm OT secondary switch. I have a 2x10 narrow panel cabinet and a 1x15 TV front Pro cabinet and an assortment of 4 and 8 ohm 15” speakers. So, I swap cabinets when I feel like it and I’ve got my bases covered for straight steel and Tele!

 

[Uncle Daddy]

I have a tweed Super and it's glorious. There is one small difference between the Pro, Bandmaster and Super, which is the value of the negative feedback resistor. If you are scratch building, watch out for the value of the choke as a couple of the schematics are wrong. Also the OT; Weber uses the correct one, Mojotone doesn't, if I recall correctly. Hammond supplies the correct 6k OT.

Sound wise, it's a long way from a Deluxe. The bright channel is almost Blackface sparkly, with more kids and the normal channel seems more tweedy. The tonestack also adds more gain with a huge bottom end from a 2x10, with that swirly natural reverb. Mine runs 5881s, sweeter than a 6L6.

Edit-
I just checked and the Weber OT is the wrong spec at 4k. The Mojotone is partially there at 6K, but the Hammond 1760JB gives a broader choice of output values.

 

[alexwilds]

Uncle Daddy, Thanks for the tips! Your Super sounds like just what I am looking for. Is your Super straight stock, and if so, what is the model and a source for the right schematic?

I add, the 15" Pro speaker appeals to me, but then I have several good 10" speakers cluttering my life....

 

[Uncle Daddy]

I like the Weber layout, though mine has an added bias pot. Mine had the wrong choke but I swapped it out for a bigger one. It also came with a 4k OT which adds a bit of headroom, so eventually it will get the correct 6k with multiple outputs like a Bassman. I reduced the coupling caps a bit to reduce the bottom end a bit too.

 

[Uncle Daddy]

To get things right, you'll need one of these-
https://nextgenguitars.ca/products/hammond-1760jb-output-transformer-upgrade-2-67-4-8-ohm.html

and one of these-
https://www.tedweber.com/w014684

The Weber OT is the wrong spec, but the choke is correct.

Mine was scratch built on a home made turret board using what looks like a Mojotone chassis, and though the build quality was fine, (a retired IBM designer built it), some of the parts were incorrect due to misinformation on suppliers transformer charts. Even so, it still sounds pretty good; the 4k OT is still correct for a blackface Bandmaster with 6L6s, but the 6k makes it right.

Mine turned up as a Bandmaster 3x10 in a home made cab, so I got the guy who makes cabs for Rift and others to knock me up a Super cab, so it's now the size of a Hot Rod Deluxe. The Jensen P10r work well for that edge of breakup, and they're not bad at full bore either, but I threw the G10 gold in just to find out what it's like. Jury's still out, as I seldom get a chance to open things up.

Pics or it didn't happen!

 

[Uncle Daddy]

By the way, if you end up looking for post build hum sources, remember to put the preamp shields on first. Doh!

 

[Wally]

Uncle Daddy, I had never noted that the NFB top resistor in the Pro is a 100K ohm versus the 56K resistor used in the Super and the Bandmaster. The Pro is hotter....hmm....

 

[Antoon]

My personal take on the ideal tweed-style amp is the preamp and phase inverter of the 5f6 Bassman/5f8 high power twin and the power amp of the 5f4 tweed super, but with a dual voltage power transformer (380V/410V) for a switchable cathode/fixed bias. The cabinet is an early (smaller) 4x10 Bassman, with a 3x10 baffle and three P10Rs. Or 2xP10Q plus one C10N. I have built this amp from salvaged Fender 50s amp parts and it is the perfect amplifier for me. It would be great if Fender would offer this configuration.

I couldn't resist to put up two pics of the circuit of my workhorse:

 

[dougstrum]

My favorite is the 5e5: it's a simpler circuit than the 5e5a.
It's similar in character to a 5e3, but has more headroom.
I'ts had different speaker combinations. Currently it's a 1x12
gb128.

Very portable, tight bass and plenty bright and dynamic. I've
been using it with my archtop for jazz gigs.

Might well be a circuit worth your building.