Turning Poison Into Medicine

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Dean James, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Well, yeah, easily disputed and it's hard to diagnose a broken heart..

    I got that story from David Gage who has a bass repair shop in NYC and was a friend of Mingus'. As Gage told the story to me after I tried for years to get hired in his shop, Mingus was angry at the way things went down before Dolphy collapsed, where the disputed stories of his death pertain to events after the collapse.

    Assuming Gage was truthful, maybe Mingus embellished in anger and his own heartbreak over the loss of a dear friend in such a petty health mistake.
    Supposedly Mingus claimed that Dolphy was heartbroken at having to leave America to find adequate audiences for his American music, and stopped taking care of himself in ways that Mingus viewed as somewhere between grave indifference and suicidal.

    According to Gage, Mingus smashed his bass in anger at the death, and Gage glued it back together for him.

    As far as Mingus accusing a nation of some notion that American indifference to Dolphy had caused his friends death, that would likely have been hurtful to his position and income, accusing and pushing away an arguably dwindling fan base for a music that took devotion of fans to support.

    Maybe there was also some feeling of guilt in Mingus for not saving his friend from himself. There are stories of Mingus making Dolphy play his bass clarinet behind the curtain, because audiences might not be receptive to such a funny looking fiddle in a very traditional vehicle.

    As far as Gage being a reliable source, I found him to be largely unfriendly, while I was mostly a PITA as a customer who spent little money but much time, and kept asking questions. I think it was several years before he told me any stories, and I recall when I was looking for either a heavier cello bow or a lighter French bass bow for playing electric cello, I saw a bass bow hanging up and took it down to ask about it.
    This pissed him off and he grabbed it away from me, saying Mingus had given it to him.
    That might be when he told me that story, FWIW.
     
  2. Teleka

    Teleka TDPRI Member

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  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    God I love Eric!

     
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  4. flatout9

    flatout9 Tele-Holic

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    I don't know some of the fusion stuff sounds a little over cooked for my taste. o_O
     
  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I still garnish with Spiro Gyra:

     
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  6. warrent

    warrent Friend of Leo's

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    I'm not sure if Miles ran a 5k but he sure did train as a boxer.
    DISpr1cUQAABSYd.jpg
     
  7. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity

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    I Love Jazz.
    There is no style of Music I would rather make fun of.
    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  8. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity

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    I am a HUGE fan of Thelonouis Monk.
    I studied Jazz in College. It didn't take long to learn that there was no way I could pay off my student loans playing Jazz.
    The Music is very Cerebrial, I enjoy it most when I am all alone listening by myself.

    Jazz, as opposed to the other forms of Music has strived to re-invent itself.
    It has never stayed in one place, like the Blues have.
     
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  9. lammie200

    lammie200 Friend of Leo's

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    Pat Martino survived (and thrived) after losing pretty sizable brain mass due to an arteriovenous malformation (AVM.) I think jazz does a brain a good. But you have to be cut out for it. I have always loved it more than any other genre. Not related, but by father died at 56 of an AVM.
     
  10. Tonetele

    Tonetele Poster Extraordinaire

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    Jazz is for musicians who don't care about keeping in key.
    Totally goes against the Mathematics in music resulting in unhoarmonious " music".
     
  11. Peregrino69

    Peregrino69 Tele-Afflicted

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    You're speaking from mine own hear there! Monk was an absolute genius. And funny as heck :D

    Sorry but I have to disagree. Please forgive me for saying so, but this is a bit of elitist thinking, and represents a very narrow interpretation of "jazz". See below.

    Hmm? Tune a piano following strictly the mathematical rules, and you will end up with unplayable, unlistenable, horribly out-of-tune instrument.

    Not a friend of Hendrix, I take it? The only thing that makes the "Hendrix chord" (Dominant 7 / sharp 5) interesting is precisely the fact that it's dissonant. Doesn't follow the math of music.

    Apparently not fan of blues or modal approach either? We have exactly two tonal varieties, major and minor. Everything else derives from these. The "blue notes" are out of tune, and all modes employ notes that are out of key. Don't follow the math of music either.

    Yours is, also please pardon me for saying so, even narrower interpretation of what jazz is. To illustrate my point I'd like to present this disharmoic mess:



    Free jazz is just a tiny niche in the vast palette that makes "jazz". I very much agree - THAT indeed is music for the players, not for the audience. And you really need to be "cut" for it.

    Or just stoned out of your **** :p
     
  12. 3-Chord-Genius

    3-Chord-Genius Poster Extraordinaire

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    To me, jazz is like any other type of music. I love some of it, and some of it gives me diarrhea.
     
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  13. Peregrino69

    Peregrino69 Tele-Afflicted

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    Damn I can't like that twice!

    "... playing with no concern for the audience is so selfish that I cease to be a musician."

    THAT is the essence of music to me. It's communication.

    Back in the day I was in a concert by 22PistePirkko. Finnish band that existed for a while in relative obscurity, then they broke in German market, after which they were The Thing in Finland as well. Full room. Actually too full - about twice what the law allows for that space simultaneously. The band's on the stage for an hour and a half with zero contact with the audience. Nada. Nix. Nothing. Not even announcing the names of the tunes. That combined with the fact that I find most shoegazer's music boring and whiny made that one of the longest hour-and-halfs in my life. Couldn't even try to drink myself into oblivion as I was the DD...
     
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  14. lammie200

    lammie200 Friend of Leo's

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    We are talking about listening and playing, not eating or imbibing. :)

    What I meant was you either like it or you don't, not that it is a better form of music than any other. Sure some people are on the fence about jazz and/or any of its subcategories, but I find that most people either gravitate toward it or away from it.
     
  15. Peregrino69

    Peregrino69 Tele-Afflicted

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    Oh. Right :D

    I find the same. I've also found that just mentioning "jazz" will put some people immediately on a negative stance. A concrete example... I once played the piece above to a friend of mine, whose taste runs into the direction of acoustic music, Simon & Garfunkel and so on. Likes female vocalists. Mistakenly did this while we were having the same discussion and I brought up the same point, "jazz" is a plenty big category. He listened for 2 seconds (no sh..) and gave the headphones back "yeah I can already hear that awful clinking, can't stand it"... referring to the way jazz drummers very often employ the brasswork :D
     
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  16. Paul Jenkin

    Paul Jenkin Friend of Leo's

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    Lots to try to get my head around, there but I will try.

    At the most basic level, I suspect that the vast majority of people who like / love music, do so because they can "learn" the tune, lyrics (assuming there are any), construction (verse, chorus, bridge, etc) and the tempo / rhythm. Repeated listening - even without any formal musical training - will usually allow the listener to get something from the piece that stays with them. However, many (probably the majority) aren't - and will never be - musicians or interested in anything that requires them to push their comfort zone.

    My guess (and I'm one of those with no formal musical education) is that Jazz fans are a more inquisitive bunch who, whether safely or recklessly, seek change.

    Radio stations are a good acid test, IMO. Their playlists are driven by commercial necessity but they play it very safe. Anything that challenges "the norm" - whether it's track length, morality, musical genre or the station owner's political or religious agenda won't be played. I'm sure there must be jazz stations but I can't think of one in the UK (not even a local station).

    So, a combination of hearing only what we're fed (radio, download, YouTube and CD/Vinyl) coupled with the seemingly innate desire for safety / familiarity will, I suspect, always marginalise anything that deviates much from the straight and narrow.

    I suppose this is a sort of validation for the old joke about a rock star being someone who plays three chords to a million people and a jazz artist being someone who plays a million chords to three people.
     
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  17. Dean James

    Dean James Tele-Meister

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    Doesn't seem like there's anything in the world that won't be bitterly dissed by some of those who don't like it. It's an old story, but ever green. Says more about human nature than about the actual topics under discussion.
     
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  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Well in fairness, 2018 was not a banner year for human nature.
     
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  19. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    I'm not sure why it is important to like music. I find polka music tedious, corny, repetitive, and borderline drunk and disorderly. I would not choose to go hear a polka band, or tune into a polka radio station.

    But I have heard thousands of segments of polka songs in my life (thank you, Grandma, for insisting on watching Lawrence Welk), most of which catch my ear and my attention. I'll easily latch onto something, a rhythmic figure, that oompa accordion, a whoop-dee-do lyric, etc. It's a pretty harmonically simple style, so I probably won't get too many thrills off of the chord progression. But there is almost always something interesting in the polka music that gets recorded and re-broadcast. Like all music, it is magical and mysterious in its workings.

    Hawaiian music of the 1940s isn't strongly on my radar, but whenever I hear something on a record, I'm in. Like with most music that I hear on record, I'm curious about what is going on, whether from the standpoint of mood, instrumentation, expressiveness of the lap steel, the quality of the recording, who knows what. Like polka music, it is made and played by musicians who, often, have dedicated their lives to it. How can a recording of a song not be interesting and noteworthy? The mood is often cheesy, to my sensibilities, but I don't have to buy into the mood and embrace it in order to find the music interesting or even captivating.

    What I don't like is when the musicians aren't even trying to do anything interesting. Soothing, repetitive music doesn't have to be uninteresting. But if you are going to traffic in repetitiveness, you would have more success with interesting textures. The problem for me is when a piece promises something, but fails to deliver. For example, some people starting out write songs with abnormally long intros. Fine for Cole Porter, but not so fine with a long chord arpeggiation intro with modal mixture harmony. (Enough already, where's the tune?)

    Obviously, I'm talking about music on a case-by-case basis. Any kind of music can be boring, or it can be magical. But I don't think those qualify as types of music, just characteristics that some pieces have.

    Music is not a sports team that you like better than the others. Or worse. There is no Bill Laimbeer quality to be found in music, so I don't see how you could dislike it the way you dislike a villainous team or the flops of Bill Laimbeer, crying to the ref. What kind of music inspires the same level of dislike?

    Music is not a restaurant. I like salad, prepared certain ways, but I don't like honey-baked anything. I don't dislike restaurants that serve honey-baked ham, although I may avoid them if I am not sure of what else is on the menu that works for me. Do I dislike Applebee's or the Olive Garden? Sure do, or at least I don't rate them very high. So, it makes sense to me to learn that someone likes this or that team or player, and this or that restaurant, if we know what their values and principles are.

    But I don't like music based on its values and principles. When it grabs me, all is good. When it meanders without delivering anything, then I'll just tune out the music once I have gotten all I wanted to out of it.

    I also don't understand why people are fans of one kind of music and not another. It is all just out there, being played somewhere, sometime for somebody. If they find it interesting in its own right, or enjoy experiencing the mood, then fine. They don't have to like or dislike an entire type of music, as it is more efficient to have opinions about specific songs, bands, recordings, etc.

    Unless we're talking about marketing. That's another topic altogether.
     
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