Tru-oil / Nitorlack Golden Age / Monty's Montypresso. Different finishes in different parts of the guitar. Höfner mod/restoration.

[Lovato__TN]

Hello to everyone,

First post on the forum, but also first restoration project.
Several years ago I received as a present this guitar body of what, after what research I could do, concluded it used to be an early 70s Höfner 4579 ii (Höfner's take on Les Paul replicas). The previous owner had stripped off the paint in a rather brutal way, then added some sort of patina, filling up and revealing all the stripping and sanding marks. It was suggested that I restore it as it was, just assembling over that raw finish, which I soon realized I didn't want to keep. Along with the body came a few loose original parts (pickguard, tailpiece, roller bridge, toggle switch). It had been abandoned for several years so I decided it's time to bring it back to life.
This is what it looked like and some quick evolution of what I did, as to not bore you (I used vinegar & steelwool to stain it):

I don't have a spray gun so I had to work with what spray colour I could get my hands on, but the blue isn't quite what I would have wanted it to be. Not too far but not quite there (too bright and not green/gray enough). Now at this point my idea is to use tru-oil on the sides and neck which at the moment are just raw stained wood, just to enhance the wood tone. Over that, I would like to do a nitro lacquer (nitorlack golden age), then eventually work on aging it a bit, achieve some checking and hopefully some yellowing too (maybe with a UV lamp?), make this shiny blue become slightly greener and the binding areas more yellow.
I would mask the fingerboard while doing the nitro. I got monty's montypresso relic wax in order to darken it and I think that should suffice as a finish there.
I still have a few uncertainties;

1) will it be ok to do the nitro finish over the tru-oiled sides of the body? I'm hoping to somehow bring it all together (sides, front, back, binding) with the nitro, so I wouldn't want to mask the sides away. I do think the wood needs some oiling to fire it up, it looks very dry at the moment. I guess the nitro itself would do some of that but I don't think it would be the same as pre-oiled.

2) I would like the back of the neck to remain tru-oil only though (for better playability), should I spray some smooth fade/transition when doing the nitro? would that work? Or better to spray everything and then sand off the neck part?

3) If I would want to darken even further the raw wood parts (besides the fingerboard; sides, neck, headstock); could I apply monty's montypresso relic wax, then tru-oil, then nitro?

4) Any experience with yellowing the nitro with a UV lamp?

I know it all sounds a bit insane, but just exploring options based on my final finish desires; checking what works, what to be aware of, etc.
I've read differing experiences so just putting this out there.
Thanks for reading!

 

[Boreas]

Welcome aboard! Great post!!

WRT nitro over TO, I have heard people do it. I personally wouldn't do it if my intent were to end with nitro. If you want a nitro finish over everything, first make sure it is compatible with the color base on the body. Assuming that works, I would look at possibly staining the raw wood to bring out highlights. However a "bleached out" wood surface tends to take up stains and penetrating oils in a spotty fashion. Something like Minwax Pre-stain applied by following the instructions can help with minimizing uneven saturation into the wood which causes the uneven appearance.

Then, a couple coats of spray shellac to seal it and prepare it for nitro. That should be enough to rejuvenate the wood grain and depth. Then prepare your color for nitro and spray everything.

 

[Boreas]

I would avoid using any kind of wax if I intended to apply a finish over it. Stuff doesn't like to stick to wax.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Thanks a lot for the great feedback, Boreas!
I see what you mean with the spotty reaction of bleached wood to oil. In fact, some parts of the edge seem to have harder grain due to the nature of the grain direction of the body, which showed at the moment I did the vinegar stain already. The other issue is I live in Germany, and though some products are the same or there are equivalents, some are rather expensive or harder to find, with high import fees considering the small amount I might need. I have also spent way more than I initially intended to, so I'm trying to work with what I already have at this point. Spray shellac, for instance, isn't something that seems to be much available here at first glance. There is, though, shellac in a glass bottle.
Which brings me back to the other thing you mentioned regarding compatibility with the color base. Upon some research, given that Nitro may react unpredictably with solvent-based paint (which is the case here: Montana Metallic spray paint), it is apparently recommended to leave the paint base to dry up to a week first, then apply the first layer of Nitro very lightly, slowly build it up layer upon layer, with proper drying in between (24hs). Is this worth a try?
I assume the other option would be to also seal the paint base (and the stained wood), with, Shellac? Or maybe just an acrylic clear spray coat (I have some of that laying around)? Before applying the Nitro.
I have no experience with Shellac at all, with how to apply it out of the bottle, etc. I'm hoping to skip this extra step and extra purchase tbh.

 

[stratisfied]

Stain the neck to match the sides and overspray the entire guitar including the blue with Vintage tint clear lacquer. That will green up the blue and yellow the bindings. It will also warm up the wood tone stain.

 

[Sea Devil]

Montana Gold paints are compatible with traditional lacquers, although I believe they are a bit of a hybrid formulation. Ive used Montana with Mohawk vinyl sealer and clear nitro topcoats with excellent results and played the guitar on stage within 72 hours of finishing.

The solids/pigment component of Montana Gold cans is absurdly high, so very little is needed.

 

[Boreas]

Thanks a lot for the great feedback, Boreas!
I see what you mean with the spotty reaction of bleached wood to oil. In fact, some parts of the edge seem to have harder grain due to the nature of the grain direction of the body, which showed at the moment I did the vinegar stain already. The other issue is I live in Germany, and though some products are the same or there are equivalents, some are rather expensive or harder to find, with high import fees considering the small amount I might need. I have also spent way more than I initially intended to, so I'm trying to work with what I already have at this point. Spray shellac, for instance, isn't something that seems to be much available here at first glance. There is, though, shellac in a glass bottle.
Which brings me back to the other thing you mentioned regarding compatibility with the color base. Upon some research, given that Nitro may react unpredictably with solvent-based paint (which is the case here: Montana Metallic spray paint), it is apparently recommended to leave the paint base to dry up to a week first, then apply the first layer of Nitro very lightly, slowly build it up layer upon layer, with proper drying in between (24hs). Is this worth a try?
I assume the other option would be to also seal the paint base (and the stained wood), with, Shellac? Or maybe just an acrylic clear spray coat (I have some of that laying around)? Before applying the Nitro.
I have no experience with Shellac at all, with how to apply it out of the bottle, etc. I'm hoping to skip this extra step and extra purchase tbh.

Sorry I am late in my reply.

Shellac isn't an absolute necessity. Any good sealer should work. Many of us use it as a go-to because it seems to work well on everything and bonds well to both subtrate and finish. But any good sealer you have available would be better than nothing - just make sure it is compatible with both your substrate and over-finish.

Your experiment with nitro over paint sounds reasonble - especially if you can test the theory on scrap using the same curing/drying times. Your paint needs to "cure" and nitro needs to "dry". Two different processes. Another thing to do if you intend to NOT use a sealer coat is to scuff up the paint gloss to give the nitro more "tooth" - meaning better adherence to the paint substrate. Scotchbrite pads are good for this, then wiping well with naphtha to clean the surface.

On a side note, if you are asking a follow-up question from a post, do it as a "reply" and not as a new post. When you "reply", the person you are replying to gets an immediate notification of your follow-up. Embedding the member's user name does the same thing. You do that by entering @Boreas in your text, which reates a hyperlink and notifies the member.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Sorry I am late in my reply.

Shellac isn't an absolute necessity. Any good sealer should work. Many of us use it as a go-to because it seems to work well on everything and bonds well to both subtrate and finish. But any good sealer you have available would be better than nothing - just make sure it is compatible with both your substrate and over-finish.

Your experiment with nitro over paint sounds reasonble - especially if you can test the theory on scrap using the same curing/drying times. Your paint needs to "cure" and nitro needs to "dry". Two different processes. Another thing to do if you intend to NOT use a sealer coat is to scuff up the paint gloss to give the nitro more "tooth" - meaning better adherence to the paint substrate. Scotchbrite pads are good for this, then wiping well with naphtha to clean the surface.

On a side note, if you are asking a follow-up question from a post, do it as a "reply" and not as a new post. When you "reply", the person you are replying to gets an immediate notification of your follow-up. Embedding the member's user name does the same thing. You do that by entering @Boreas in your text, which reates a hyperlink and notifies the member.

Thanks a lot for the detailed response Boreas, and noted regarding the reply or embed!

Ok, understood, paint has been curing for about two weeks now so I assume it should be ready for next step soon. I'll see if I can get my hands on any sealer or just give it a go with very thin first layers of nitro directly.

Regarding the scuffing up, I would normally agree; but given that this is a metallic paint, would you still recommend it? As fine as a scotchbrite might be, I've been hesitant about this step because of the metallic shine. And also because this kind of spray paint, originally intended for graffitti, doesn't really endure sanding very well. The surface itself isn't super smooth because I didn't do any grain filler or priming in the wood before, so there is some texture to it already (although not in a microscopic level as it probably should be).

@Sea Devil thanks for the input, glad to hear I'm not the first to go for Montana paint. They are very affordable in Berlin and with a decent colour palette. I'll check about the vinyl sealer and see if it's available here, to use between the paint and the nitro.

@Stratified thanks for the suggestion. I'm sort of hoping I can find some kind of sealer to use between the paint and the nitro which would also already provide some yellowing, to help with making the blue more green. The nitro which I already bought (nitorlack golden age) is clear, so a bit too late to make changes there (I'm already over my budget), although it would yellow with time I suppose. So if I can find something that seals the paint, is compatible with the nitro over it, and also does some of that yellowing, bingo. It would mean only one last purchase for achieving several steps and being on the safe side regarding compatibility. Maybe I'm asking for too much..

 

[Boreas]

Regarding the scuffing up, I would normally agree; but given that this is a metallic paint, would you still recommend it? As fine as a scotchbrite might be, I've been hesitant about this step because of the metallic shine.

Of course always best to test on a sample, but the metallic stuff is not on the surface or you would feel it. Even a white (000) or light grey (0) pad should be plenty to impart microscopic scratches into the hard surface for the nitro to grip. It doesn't take much - you aren't trying to remove paint. As soon as the nitro is applied, the gloss will return. But ultimately it is up to you.

If it is enamel paint, you don't really need to spray anything on it. If it is a paint that requires a clearcoat, usually best to stay with the same product brand.

 

[Lovato__TN]

I know at this point my blue is way too far from this, but it gives you guys a reference to the color I was eventually hoping to achieve. Even some small steps into this direction would make me happier. Given that the guitar is actually from the 70s, I would feel somehow less guilty about some relicking, and I would inversely feel guilty if it ends up looking too new. Though this heavy aged murphy lab example feels a bit much.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Of course always best to test on a sample, but the metallic stuff is not on the surface or you would feel it. Even a white (000) or light grey (0) pad should be plenty to impart microscopic scratches into the hard surface for the nitro to grip. It doesn't take much - you aren't trying to remove paint. As soon as the nitro is applied, the gloss will return. But ultimately it is up to you.

If it is enamel paint, you don't really need to spray anything on it. If it is a paint that requires a clearcoat, usually best to stay with the same product brand.

Thanks a lot for clearing that out, Boreas. That's what I was suspecting, about the gloss returning. Great then, I will go ahead with the scuffing.

 

[Boreas]

I know at this point my blue is way too far from this, but it gives you guys a reference to the color I was eventually hoping to achieve. Even some small steps into this direction would make me happier. Given that the guitar is actually from the 70s, I would feel somehow less guilty about some relicking, and I would inversely feel guilty if it ends up looking too new. Though this heavy aged murphy lab example feels a bit much.

View attachment 1303038View attachment 1303039

Matching blue can be tough because of different ambient light sources. Some paint can shift from green to purple depending on the "temperature" of the light.

 

[Boreas]

Thanks a lot for clearing that out, Boreas. That's what I was suspecting, about the gloss returning. Great then, I will go ahead with the scuffing.

Test first because you are likely using paint I am unfamiliar with. You could even contact the manufacturer with your specific questions regarding compatability.

 

[Sea Devil]

Sealer goes under the color coat, not over it! (Edit: it can be used over color too, but only as filler with more color on top) You can go straight to clear lacquer, whether acrylic or nitro, after the Montana. There is so much pigment in the Montana colors that the clear will absorb it and show it a little when buffed or sanded unless you put it on fairly thickly. I didn't; I used my clear (Mohawk Ultra-Flow Ultra Bond) to get an even sheen regardless of what was coming off on my polishing cloth.

Clear over metallic is always tricky. You need to build a barrier so that the "flop" of the metallic particles is not affected by the last coats of clear, which are typically on the wetter side. You need twice as many dust coats as you might otherwise -- maybe six?

 

[ChicknPickn]

If the fretboard has oil or factory sealant anywhere on it, dyes will produce a blotchy result and you’ll wish you’d left it alone. I think you know how I know . . . .

Fortunately, I learned this on a cheap neck. Still, it was a bummer.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Sealer goes under the color coat, not over it! (Edit: it can be used over color too, but only as filler with more color on top) You can go straight to clear lacquer, whether acrylic or nitro, after the Montana. There is so much pigment in the Montana colors that the clear will absorb it and show it a little when buffed or sanded unless you put it on fairly thickly. I didn't; I used my clear (Mohawk Ultra-Flow Ultra Bond) to get an even sheen regardless of what was coming off on my polishing cloth.

Clear over metallic is always tricky. You need to build a barrier so that the "flop" of the metallic particles is not affected by the last coats of clear, which are typically on the wetter side. You need twice as many dust coats as you might otherwise -- maybe six?

Ok, I guess this barrier is what we had been discussing previously with @Boreas (maybe sealer isn't the right term then).
Not sure what you mean by "flop" of metallic particles. I gave it about 3 or 4 layers of Montana Metallic. You would then recommend 6 very fine coats (dust coats?) before the more intense (wetter) final coats, if I understood right?
Regarding scuffing the metallic paint before the dust coats, what's your opinion?

If the fretboard has oil or factory sealant anywhere on it, dyes will produce a blotchy result and you’ll wish you’d left it alone. I think you know how I know . . . .

Fortunately, I learned this on a cheap neck. Still, it was a bummer.

Thanks for the input, ChicknPickn.
I did a refret so I took the chance and sanded down the surface of the fretboard, it didn't seem to have any finish, just some very dried out years of human dirt on it. At this point it feels for certain like raw wood.

 

[Sea Devil]

Don't scuff or sand a metallic finish unless your objective is to make it less metallic, in which case your chances of success are about 50/50.

"Flop" is the actual technical term for how the metallic particles lie and reflect light in a quasi-random fashion. If the particles get wet after application, they can lie down uniformly and lose their sparkle.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Don't scuff or sand a metallic finish unless your objective is to make it less metallic, in which case your chances of success are about 50/50.

"Flop" is the actual technical term for how the metallic particles lie and reflect light in a quasi-random fashion. If the particles get wet after application, they can lie down uniformly and lose their sparkle.

Really interesting, thanks a lot for that info Sea Devil. Now learning a bit more about this before the next steps.
I wouldn't mind to loose some of the metallic shine which at the moment feels a bit much. But of course it would be great to have it all be somewhat equal. I'll probably avoid scuffing then, move on to the dust coats.
Any specifics regarding drying time between these dust coats? 24hs?

 

[Sea Devil]

I do them ten minutes apart, sometimes less. They dry instantly.

 

[Lovato__TN]

Just a little update. Colour turned out really nice after doing last layer with a "varnish tone" nitro that yellowed the binding and turned the blue more green, as desired. The checking happened too quick and cracks too thick, so I wouldn't recommend this german product to anyone really, but for my first restoring and finish work, I'm happy about it and will live with it for now at least. Guitar plays beatifully. Thanks to everyone for all the advice.