Tone Pot Wiring Confusion

[Bucster752]

My CS '55 white guard has, according to Fender, their 'Fat 50s' wiring, which is shown in this image.



My issue is common, I assume: turning the volume down rolls off more high frequencies than I care to lose. I've ordered a treble bleed circuit from StewMac and while awaiting its' arrival I've been looking t various Tele wiring schemes. I found these two on Fralin's site which seem to be in conflict, yet both are being labeled as 'Standard Telecaster Wiring'.



So......all you wiring wizards out there, what's up with this? All I want to do is preserve the high end when dialing down the volume. Does either of the Fralin schemes accomplish this? I'm pretty sure the treble bleed circuit will do the trick but I've heard they often mess with the taper of the volume pot (unless you use the Kinman arrangement of the cap & resistor).

A little help..........?

 

[Peegoo]

@Bucster752

This is the correct scheme for so-called 50's tone control. Notice where the cap is and how it's connected. Doing it this way reduces the capacitive effect of the tone pot as it's rolled back; it preserves more highs.

 

[JRapp]

The 'fat 50s' wiring has the tone pot lead coming off the middle lug of the volume pot---similar to 50s Gibson wiring. That should help with the high-end a bit. You may not need a treble bleed.

 

[Bucster752]

The 'fat 50s' wiring has the tone pot lead coming off the middle lug of the volume pot---similar to 50s Gibson wiring. That should help with the high-end a bit. You may not need a treble bleed.

Nope. The cap is not on the middle lug of the volume pot.......please look again. And I do need something to preserve the highs as they definitely roll off when lowering volume.

I see the cap value in the Gibson diagram is .022 while the Fender is .05. As I understand it, the higher the value the more highs are shifted to ground, yes? Perhaps a .022 might help with the Tele scheme?

 

[generic202]

Nope. The cap is not on the middle lug of the volume pot.......please look again.

Actually, the cap is on the middle lug of the volume pot. The tone pot is connected first and then from the middle of the tone pot, the cap goes to ground on the volume pot. The order does not matter whether the cap or the pot comes first for the tone control.

 

[sjtalon]

I see the cap value in the Gibson diagram is .022 while the Fender is .05. As I understand it, the higher the value the more highs are shifted to ground, yes? Perhaps a .022 might help with the Tele scheme?

Correct and yes .022µF is a good "not to aggressive" value with 250KΩ pots. Try it with test leads.

The reason you are seeing two different values there is Gibson normally had 500K pots while Fender uses 250K

As far as a tone pot in the end, a 500 w/.022 and a 250 w/.05 will work pretty much the same.

 

[Wound_Up]

My CS '55 white guard has, according to Fender, their 'Fat 50s' wiring, which is shown in this image.

View attachment 1060525

My issue is common, I assume: turning the volume down rolls off more high frequencies than I care to lose. I've ordered a treble bleed circuit from StewMac and while awaiting its' arrival I've been looking t various Tele wiring schemes. I found these two on Fralin's site which seem to be in conflict, yet both are being labeled as 'Standard Telecaster Wiring'.

View attachment 1060526 View attachment 1060528

So......all you wiring wizards out there, what's up with this? All I want to do is preserve the high end when dialing down the volume. Does either of the Fralin schemes accomplish this? I'm pretty sure the treble bleed circuit will do the trick but I've heard they often mess with the taper of the volume pot (unless you use the Kinman arrangement of the cap & resistor).

A little help..........?

Pretty sure effect wise, those do the same thing. Let me find the graphic I found the other day. It'll show it. I came across the same thing except my Tele was wired one way before I rewired it and the other way you posted after I rewired it. I was sure they were different functionally but according to this page, they are identical in function.

Edit: here it is. Though wired differently ALL of these accomplish the EXACT same thing. Zero difference in function.

 

[somebodyelseuk]

My CS '55 white guard has, according to Fender, their 'Fat 50s' wiring, which is shown in this image.

View attachment 1060525

My issue is common, I assume: turning the volume down rolls off more high frequencies than I care to lose. I've ordered a treble bleed circuit from StewMac and while awaiting its' arrival I've been looking t various Tele wiring schemes. I found these two on Fralin's site which seem to be in conflict, yet both are being labeled as 'Standard Telecaster Wiring'.

View attachment 1060526 View attachment 1060528

So......all you wiring wizards out there, what's up with this? All I want to do is preserve the high end when dialing down the volume. Does either of the Fralin schemes accomplish this? I'm pretty sure the treble bleed circuit will do the trick but I've heard they often mess with the taper of the volume pot (unless you use the Kinman arrangement of the cap & resistor).

A little help..........?

The first diagram shouldn't lose any high end when using the volume, as the capacitor is wired to the output of the volume pot and not 'loaded' by the pickup.
The second diagram, with the capacitor wired to the volume input, will lose highend as you turn the volume down, because you introduce a resistance to the input forcing signal towards the capacitor.

 

[Bucster752]

The first diagram shouldn't lose any high end when using the volume......

Ah but it does.......quite annoying as I do like to make use of the volume knob. I was trained as a radio repairman in the USAF way back in 1972......obviously a perishable skill set as I don't remember any of it! (......too much partying?) The little treble bleed circuit is due to arrive later today. I can still wield a soldering iron well enough to see if this mod will fix the issue. Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

 

[LutherBurger]

Ah but it does.......quite annoying as I do like to make use of the volume knob. I was trained as a radio repairman in the USAF way back in 1972......obviously a perishable skill set as I don't remember any of it! (......too much partying?) The little treble bleed circuit is due to arrive later today. I can still wield a soldering iron well enough to see if this mod will fix the issue. Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

I've tried "'50s wiring" (hated it) and a treble bleed (liked it for a while but eventually removed it), but never both at the same time. Please let us know how it works out.

 

[Bucster752]

Please let us know how it works out.

Worked out quite well. A few minutes to prep everything, two touches with the soldering iron and boom! I use the volume control to move from solo and riffing rhythm parts to 'under-the-vocal' level.....just a slight tweak of the knob does the trick and this little mod retains the high end when making that change. I'm pleased with it.

My Collings Statesman has been on consignment for the last four months with no bites.....decided to bring it back home. I had already written it off my inventory, but hey, if no one else wants it....... It has the same issue - losing high end when dialing down volume. The repairman at the store where the guitar is consigned is quite good and before I pick it up I will let him install treble bleeds. The guitar is a 335-style hollow body and though I have done it in the past I will let him wrestle with pulling the wiring harness this time! If you've ever changed pickups in this style body you know the struggle of which I speak........

 

[Texas Jake]

Question for you guys that have tried both standard and 50's style of wiring... Is there enough difference for it to make sense to make it switchable on a push/pull pot? It's easy enough to wire but if both options get you to the same place, it probably wouldn't be very usable.

Edit: Asked and answered. Found an older thread with the exact same question.
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/can-you-with-use-of-a-switch-chose-from-modern-to-50s-wiring.1117375/