Tone Master Deluxe Reverb VS Tone Master Twin????

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by drri, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. drri

    drri TDPRI Member

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    So I ended up with both. Love them equally and use them both in different settings. Something baffles me though and I thought maybe someone here could help....

    The Deluxe Reverb is louder!

    Put them both on whatever wattage matches (1w, 5w, etc....) Settings the same (except for the mid range knob of course) and the DR is louder! I would think the Twin would be louder yeah?

    I still get plenty of volume out of the Twin so that's not an issue, but on the same wattage/settings DR is louder. Any thoughts on this?
     
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  2. horseman308

    horseman308 Tele-Holic

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    Do both amps have the same speakers, it is it possible the Twin came with lower efficiency speakers? Have you measured the decibel out put for each?

    I also would find that weird, but amps are funny things. I wonder if the DR is voiced to be brighter than the TR, which would make it sound louder (I would think) as the highs will be more noticeable at any volume.

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  3. drri

    drri TDPRI Member

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    Yeah they have the same exact speakers. Haven't measured anything, just know what my ears hear. May just end up emailing Fender and asking.
     
  4. OzShadow

    OzShadow Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Put everything on 10 and tell us which hurts more
     
  5. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    How are you testing the relative loudness?

    If you're standing in front of them within 10 feet then you are probably getting a phasing issue of the two speakers close mounted cancelling each other. .i.e. it's phsyco-acoustic.

    Set them up with open space between and turn them up an equal amount.

    Fender may have set the DRTM preamp to have more gain at lower settings so it approximates a 'real one' on breakup character.

    Or - always a possibility, you have a bad speaker or dud connection out of the box.
     
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  6. codamedia

    codamedia Friend of Leo's

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    What you describe doesn't surprise me. A Deluxe cuts through a room, a Twin fills a room.
    I often found on a stage I had to run a Twin louder than I would a Deluxe in order to hear it. That doesn't mean it's quieter ;)

    Also keep in mind that power rating indicates "clean headroom", not overall volume. I'm sure the TWIN is louder while remaining clean.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  7. drri

    drri TDPRI Member

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    That sounds like a good answer to me. haha It's been so long since I've owned a Twin and when I did I didn't exactly get to turn it up. The DR however I only had to turn up to 5 and be perfectly loud.....

    I'm going off the 4 power ratings I have on each amp 1w,5w, and 12w, and 22w. I get the break up with both of them turned up, DR is just louder. But the Twin does sound fuller and I have more headroom to work with even at the same volume.
     
  8. chipwich

    chipwich Tele-Meister

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    Can you play surf with that Twin?
     
  9. drri

    drri TDPRI Member

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    Anything special needed other than turning up the Reverb and Trem??
     
  10. Vespa_One

    Vespa_One Tele-Holic

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    Is the Twin louder at 85 watts?
     
  11. 1300 E Valencia

    1300 E Valencia Friend of Leo's

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    Distortion sounds louder than clean. Those 16-piece big bands of the '30s and '40s were plenty loud, but the blue hairs will always complain about the one fuzz guitar first.

    I've A/B'd a DRRI and a TRRI, side-by-side. The Twin is not four times as loud (85 vs. 22 watts). It's not even twice as loud. Both on "5", both on "10". Doesn't matter. Distortion sounds louder than clean.
     
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  12. chipwich

    chipwich Tele-Meister

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    Not as long as the reverb sounds like the original.
     
  13. jsnwhite619

    jsnwhite619 Friend of Leo's

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    Shot in the dark.... If I remember correctly, the Twin has really heavy NFB. If you are comparing them at the same power levels - say both at 22 watts or anything less than that - I would expect the Deluxe to be louder. Same speakers and same output level but different negative feedback levels: the amp with less NFB is going to be louder and brighter. In my experience. In the case it would be the Deluxe.

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  14. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Nope. Same NFB for both. 820 ohm feedback resistor connecting to the tail resistor of the phase inverter, with a 47 ohm resistor connecting that tail to ground.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  15. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    I think there's a few reasons why the DR sounds louder (and some of them have already been mentioned).

    For starters, the mids are fixed with the DR. Since you can adust the mids on the TR, there's a decent chance you might have them set lower, relatively speaking. If the mids are set higher, the overall gain will be higher, and the signal will be clipping more (more on this in a moment).

    Someone mentioned the partial cancellation of some frequencies when you have a pair of speakers side-by-side, and a TR will certainly potentially suffer from that, while the DR won't.

    It was also mentioned that the DR will overdrive earlier. The reason clipped signals sound louder is because they are loaded with harmonics, which our brain interprets as being "more."

    Along with harmonics from the amp itself, a single driver will break up more than a pair will. A distorting speaker will sound louder for the very same reasons that a clipped signal sounds louder.
     
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  16. jsnwhite619

    jsnwhite619 Friend of Leo's

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    But it's a 4 ohm OT impedance. Compared to the DR 8ohm OT, the Twin gets heavier NFB with everything else being equal....if I recall correctly.

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  17. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Actually, stupid me, yes, you're right!

    Scroll partway down this page, and you'll find that Rob Robinette sums it all up very nicely:

    The multi-speaker amps, the Tremolux, Band-Master, Concert, Super Reverb, Dual Showman and Twin Reverb use a "heavy" negative feedback (NFB) circuit compared to the other AB763 amps' "light" circuit. These multi-speaker amps used 2 and 4 ohm output transformer secondaries so the "heavy" NFB circuit compensated for the lower secondary voltages. The feedback circuit is made up of two NFB resistors that form a voltage divider. The "heavy" NFB circuit uses an 820 / 100 ohm divider while the others use a "light" 820 / 47 ohm circuit. The 820 / 100 "heavy" NFB circuit attenuates the output transformer secondary signal voltage by 89%. The 820 / 47 "light" NFB circuit cuts the signal by 95%.

    The NFB voltage from an 8 ohm speaker output gives 41% more voltage than a 4 ohm. There's also a 41% increase when comparing a 2 and 4 ohm secondary. Fender used the "heavy" NFB circuit in the multi-speaker amps to compensate for their lower voltage delivered by their 2 and 4 ohm output transformer secondaries. The Concert and Super Reverb get 41% less negative feedback than all the other 6L6 amps due to their 2 ohm output.

    Fender used the same NFB circuit in the 6V6, 2x6L6 and 4x6L6 amps even though their power amps put out different voltages. The result is the 2x6L6 amps get about 25% more NFB than the 2x6V6 amps and the 4x6L6 get around 30% more NFB than the 2x6L6 amps. This is one of the reasons the Twin Reverb sounds so clear and clean.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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  18. jsnwhite619

    jsnwhite619 Friend of Leo's

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    No worries! It took me a while to set my brain to the fact that the actual result to most of this stuff is backwards from what I thought it was!

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