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Tone (HELP)

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Croftcw, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. Croftcw

    Croftcw TDPRI Member

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    So with a ts808, paisley drive, carbon copy delay, mxr custom comp, VP and a tuner what would the ideal order be? I'm going to toy with not playing with a delay or a compressor too just to experiment
     
  2. Bartholomew3

    Bartholomew3 Friend of Leo's

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    The buffer idea might clean up your situation - I never used one because I don't really need it but know it can make a huge difference.

    Also I've used those twin-reverbs with the master-volume and don't really like most of them...except for one in a Montreal studio that is completely amazing. The guy who runs the studio is a tech and set it up himself.

    I'm also not completely happy with my sound most of the time - so welcome to the club, it's a never-ending process on electric.

    I find it difficult to use the volume control on the guitar and have a tendency to max it out and pick softer always.

    Guess the secret is to never stop trying...good-luck with it all.
     
  3. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    for starters... there is no ideal order.

    tuner -> comp -> TS808 -> paisley drive -> volume pedal -> delay

    this order you would get a repeat after dropping the volume pedal down. if you want the volume pedal to kill the sound, put the delay before it.

    I'd start w/ this

    tuner -> TS808 -> paisley drive -> amp

    then try reversing the order of the drives, or lose one.. then try adding the volume pedal if you think you need it. then add the delay. then add the comp if you want I wouldn't ;)
     
  4. El Reclusa

    El Reclusa Tele-Afflicted

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    Lots of good advice here.

    Without reviewing your pedal list, I'd be surprised if at least one doesn't have a buffer somewhere in the circuit.

    The biggest sore thumb sticking out, though, is the Master Volume-era silverface Twin. These are notoriously a low point in Fender amp design. They can be made to sound good, though. Do you have a competent amp tech nearby?

    Otherwise, depending on your band's volume and the size of venue, I'd look into something no smaller than a Princeton, no more power than a Super...
     
  5. BartS

    BartS Friend of Leo's

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    Honestly I have know idea what kind of tone your going for with a set up like that? Kind of a chet ackins meets tom morrelo?

    1973twin sounds great. I dont know if anyone has said this before but the fender noiseless is some of the worst pickups fender made. Get some decent single coil pickups no noisless or anything like that. I wouldn't buy a pickup made by fender these days. They all sound sinthetic. See if you can get someone on the forums to wind you some. I think I have even seen hand wound pickups on ebay 3 for 100. It doesn't really matter who winds them they will sound fine.

    Then just plug the guitar staight into the amp. If it sounds to country for you it's because it's a silverface. I think the silverfaces sound awesome as is though. You could have it blackface modded and it will sound a little more rock and roll.

    You can turn the knobs all day and it will still sound like a twin. The volume you should be able to have on 4, 7, 10 and it should still sound good. The tone knobs don't do as much as you think. Just adjust them to ear and you should be fine.

    Your biggest problem is the pickups and the pedals. Most of the effects you hear on albums or live are done on the mixing board. The pedals just suck tone. Just plug the guitar into the amp and play it.
     
  6. Wrong-Note Rod

    Wrong-Note Rod Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm like that too. I run as stripped down a setup as I possibly can, for the gig involved. But then I've got multiple amps and multiple pedalboards. One amp/pedalboard is for country, and while it can mildly rock, its mostly about twang, and tremolo, and stuff like that there.

    the other is for RAWK and its a Marshall two channel 800, and while the "clean" is sort of clean-ish, no way in Hades is it ever gonna be Fender clean, but it serves its purpose.

    I use a Boss bluesDriver pedal for a lead stomp, regardless of what channel I'm in, found a good "middleground" setting for both channels, and dont worry if its a bit too loud or too quiet for any particular passage. It is, what it is, and I'm not playing Madison square garden anyway.

    My point (yes I have one) is that its difficult to get a single set up thats utterly fabulous in every single conceived sonic situation imaginable. Excel in one, get pretty close in the others, thats about all you can do really.

    You can get a good Fender amp and put a booteek dirt pedal in front of it and say you've got the greatest dirt ever, but put it next to this firebreathing old Marshall combo, and it will eat you for lunch. Of course your cleans will kill me.

    thats just how it is, from my viewpoint
     
  7. Diagoras

    Diagoras Tele-Holic

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    I agree.

    I get asked about my tone all the time, and the key for me is keeping it simple... I haven't used more than three pedals in as long as I can remember: a tuner, a noise suppressor, and then one other pedal depending on the band/songs. Currently that other pedal is a Blues Driver set to give me just a slight bite. Then I switch between the clean and dirty settings on my amp, and I use only a tiny bit of reverb (also through the amp).

    I can't stand chorus or compression, and wouldn't use them in a million years. They are tone killers, IMO.

    Of course, it also depends on the tone you are going for. I prefer mostly clean-ish tones, so I want my tone going into the amp to be as pure and Fender-y as possible.
     
  8. Bartholomew3

    Bartholomew3 Friend of Leo's

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    Agreed about that master volume sucking. I tried a couple on 10 and found that I had to back down to approx 7 or 8 or less on the master or the sound was a mess.

    The good ones I've played through have had speaker upgrades - the speaker is 50% of the sound IMO and from the factory Fender speakers have always been "peaky" or harsh. When I bought my 68 sf twin the speakers were replaced immediately with an upgrade and the seventies didn't get better.
     
  9. viking

    viking Friend of Leo's

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    Ive only recently started to roll the volume knob back and forth.....I never play completely clean , so maybe its not comparable to your situation.

    I use a Super Reverb now , and turn it up quite high , get a bit of warmth to the sound , if we dont play that loud I use one of my overdrives all the time. Kick in the other one for solos.....

    I dont like high-effiencency speakers in a non-master amp. I would rather have less efficient speakers and put the volume on 9 or 10 , no kidding!

    I have never spent much time thinking about how my guitars sounded with a touch of volume rolled off untill getting the Super.

    First gig I did I with it I couldnt get why the tone was so thin.....Ive settled on the Fezz Parka wiring for the volume pot , highly recommended !
     
  10. Tommy B

    Tommy B Tele-Meister

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    OP, you have everything you need for good tone. A Tele and a Twin.

    I am an advocate for simplicity. Crank the twin to where you have the tone you like for solos and back the volume down on your Tele. If using the volume pot is unnatural to you, get a volume pedal to put between the Tele and the Twin- just like Junior Brown. He does not have bad tone and uses no other effects. However, your rig will be LOUD.

    I do it the same way but have a 5D3 instead of a twin.

    Silver Face Twins are more than capable of producing good tone. Has the amp been serviced? It may be time for a cap job, new power tubes and bias adjustment.

    If you are needing breakup at lower volumes, you may need a different amp. If you like what most consider the classic Fender sound, look into a Deluxe Reverb combo or a Bassman Amp head and cab if you don't need reverb. Silver Face Bassman Amp heads are reasonably priced and contrary to some opinions have plenty of tone to push thru a 2x12 or 2x10 cab.

    You almost can't go wrong with a Deluxe Reverb. Very versatile amp and somewhat easy to sell. I think you could trade the Twin and a couple hundred bucks for a Silver Face Deluxe Reverb.

    I'm a bluegrass guy too and can understand adjusting to an amplified electric from a Dreadnought. In bluegrass you are strumming pretty hard for rhythm with a thick pick and need to to be heard over the banjo and mandolin. I bet you are used to almost beating the cramp out of the guitar for volume and drive and only back off a little for soft vocal parts or slower songs and you get lost in the mix for guitar breaks.

    Playing electric like that will suck tone out of your gear. You will need a lighter touch because the Tele will be much more responsive to touch and dynamics than a Martin trying to be as loud as the banjo. Start thinking more "Devlin" than "Train 45" as you approach playing and electric.
     
  11. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

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    I would simplify the pedal chain as suggested. Per Agitator, do some experimenting:

    Spend some time plugged straight into the amp and optimizing its straight-up tone for a great clean sound. If you can't get that, think about seeing an amp tech or getting a different amp.

    Spend some time seeing if a little light compression helps you get better "chicken-picking" tone, or maybe you don't need it at all. Less is more.

    Spend some time seeing if one of your dirt pedals can give you a good base country blues-rock tone, sort of like Paisley, maybe.

    See if the compression going into the dirt pedal put together can create a good lead tone.

    Then you have four basic sounds: 1) amp alone; 2) amp with compression; 3) amp with compression going into dirt; 4) amp with dirt. Learn to use the volume knob and tone knobs on your guitar plus your right hand attack to adjust from there. Dirt should be a lot less than you think-- too much and it your signal won't cut through at all. Should sound a lot like your clean signal with just "a little hair" on it, and maybe just a little more mids. Something in the tube-screamer, blues driver, OD-3 family can do this pretty well with the gain set pretty low.

    Ditch the volume, delay, and wah pedal and anything else. Only add back if you just must have it after living without for awhile. First try living with tuner-->compressor--->dirt pedal--->amp. If you are using a lot of cable, try shorter cables.

    A pedal with a buffer in it could help, too. Any Visual Sounds or Boss pedal will do the job, and can serve one of the other functions at the same time-- tuner, compressor, or dirt. (A buffer converts a high impedance signal to a low impedance signal so that the signal, especially its highs, does not attenuate as much when they it is passed through a longer cable.) Another and/or option would be to go with higher quality, low capacitance cables. I like Spectraflex original for their price, suppleness, reliability, and quality.

    Carbon copy delay after dirt should actually be fine if used judiciously-- either for classic slap-back echo or for rock echo. Work on the two settings, then use stickers or markers to mark the two preferred settings for the two sounds so you can quickly dial in whichever you need between songs.

    If you feel your tone gets too muddy when you back off on your guitar's volume knob, install something like a Kinman treble bleed circuit. Costs less than a buck for one small capacitor and one small resistor that you put across the two leads on the guitar's volume pot, and about 20 minutes with a screw driver and a soldering gun.

    If you can get your guitar volume knob working like you want it to, it really makes it possible to vary your level, gain, and attack quite a bit without touching a pedal at all. With that, the tone knob, and the pickup selector, I got a whole lot of options without stepping on a thing. And, just like on an acoustic, you can dramatically affect your tone by your attack and whether you play close to the bridge or further away.

    I'm not sure how you pick. I hybrid pick, sometimes using a regular pick held between my thumb and index finger, plus my middle and ring finger, but sometimes I tuck the pick in the curve of my fingers and use nothing but thumb and fingers so I can really snap and pull on the strings. A great deal of tone comes from how you yank and plank on those strings. I generally use 10s-- a good compromise for me between being able to bend and getting a strong, clear signal out of the strings. If you use a pick, I would suggest something extra heavy so it doesn't give at all when you work the strings.
     
  12. Red Square

    Red Square Friend of Leo's

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    As evidenced in every previous post, there are dozens of variables, any one or several of which could be producing the sonic displeasure you encounter.
    Without sitting down and listening to your rig, and having you clearly articulate what it is you don't like as you are playing, we are all shooting from the hip. Although all advice posted above is wise and well worth exploring.

    All I could suggest is stripping down to guitar straight into amp and see if things get better, worse or stay the same. If they don't get better, try a different guitar into the amp or the guitar into a different amp.

    This is a very hard thing to diagnosis and fix, but I feel confident you will fix things.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  13. ASC67

    ASC67 Friend of Leo's

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    You might try different / thinner picks as well.
     
  14. TellySavalas

    TellySavalas Tele-Meister

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    Take all of the gadgets out of the mix and plug straight in. Also turn the reverb to zero. This will force you to come to terms with your tone and your style. A Tele and a twin should be enough for you to find your tone. Effects are a distraction.
     
  15. Agitator

    Agitator Friend of Leo's

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    Are you CRAZY?? He needs THICKER picks!!

    ;)
     
  16. blue metalflake

    blue metalflake Doctor of Teleocity

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    You've had loads of good advice, most of which suggests dumping the pedals, and I agree.

    Someone suggested learning to vary attack & angle of your right hand which will for sure give a lot of variation. Your twin, though not from the greatest era, will give you a big clean tone, absolute country. It won't really do dirt, so you'll need a pedal for that. Why not invest in a dual boost pedal, like the Blackstar Dual HT which will give clean boost for solos, and a dirtier boost for an alternative sound.
     
  17. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    So says Agitator. The funniest thing I've ever seen here.
     
  18. Agitator

    Agitator Friend of Leo's

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    I didn't realize people felt so strongly about wah-wah pedals. :D
     
  19. StarliteDeVille

    StarliteDeVille Tele-Meister

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    Jason Aldean played here a few months ago, and I had to pick my buddy up who lived near where the concert was being held. I don't know a great deal about gear or Jason Aldean for that matter, but I do remember my buddy remarking, "When did all these guys start using Les Pauls?". Don't know if that is the main issue, but he said all he heard for the entire 3 hr. sound check was Les Pauls.
     
  20. BigWillyInd

    BigWillyInd Tele-Afflicted

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    Is it possible he just doesn't like the Twin sound?:confused:
    I know it's like, sacrilege around here. But maybe that Dr. Z is what he's looking for. Maybe it's pickups, too. I think all the wah hate is a little misleading though. But, I too am trying to rid my board of it. I find that I still need it for certain sounds/songs. If you find you don't use it, take it off. Don't have to sell it though.

    Just my opinion OP, these fellas around here have great ideas about how you should approach it, and I should also mention I've never played in the kind of band you're in. Country and "New-fangled Country". :D
     
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