This is a great explanation of why tube watts sound louder than solid state at about 6 minutes in

1300 E Valencia

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Side: I notice on the new Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, a 100 watt class D amp is used to emulate 22 tube watts from the original DR.
Yeah, but no. The emulation of 22 tube watts takes place in the modeling section, not in the power amp.
100 watt class D amp doesn't emulate anything, it's just there to make the modeling louder. It's 100 watts solely for the purpose of eliminating any possibility of digital distortion. Think of the Class D amp as the P.A. for the Deluxe Reverb modeling.
 

Cesspit

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Interesting, I am totally ignorant on the technical side of this discussion. However, from experience I believe, for the same watt rating (or dissimilar rating), tube amps are louder. Two examples.

I owned a MB Maverick 2x12 combo. 30 watts. It destroyed our vocalists SS 130 watt amp for volume. he always ran it maxed out and I had to juggle with volumes just to get a balanced sound.

I currently use, and gig with a BJ tweed. 10 watts 1x12. I (very briefly) owned a Fender Champion 100 (which I though was not very good). The Champion never came close to the BJ for volume.
I'm sure someone here will now tell me why I am wrong and baffle me with science.

I'd love a none tube amp but I've yet to play one that can cope volume wise, though I'm sure they exist but my BJ does it all without fuss and I can't be arsed to go searching .
I'm just an old school technophobe............
 

DougM

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One thing that no one has talked about here is honesty in power rating. In the 70s the US Govt. started requiring makers of stereos to rate their amps using RMS power ratings, over a specified frequency range, and at a specified level of distortion. So, they forced them to be honest. An amp that produced 10 watts RMS at a reasonable level of distortion, say .1%, over the full freq. range of 20-20khz, could produce 100 or more watts for a millisecond at 1khz and at 10% or more distortion. So, many unscrupulous companies would call that a 100 watt amp. So, the govt. stepped in to keep them more honest. Now, tube amps, even in the world of hi-fi, produce much higher levels of distortion than SS amps. But, then that created a spec war, where makers would use excessive amounts of negative feedback to get ever lower and lower published distortion ratings, like .001%, which could actually hinder sound quality if done poorly. I think that those requirements have slipped some, because I know that many surround sound receivers rated at 100 watts will produce 100 watts into the two main front channels, but much lower power levels into the front and rear surround channels.
So, these power shenanigans may be why some SS guitar amps aren't as loud as they would seem they should be. An amp that claims to be 50 watts may actually only be 10. The majority of tube guitar amps are in the higher priced sector of the market, and those makers seem to be more honest, and receive more scrutiny if they aren't honest.
 

Musekatcher

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Nuff of this, I gotta practice, loudly......HA, HA...
I did, last night. My buddie's 45W EL84 was clearly louder than my 100W 6L6 amp. His was on a stand, mine on the floor. His is stock including the speaker, mine has G12-50 speakers selected for low sensitivity. Both are louder than the two other stock 100W solid state'ers sitting in the corner as backups. There are predictions and analysis (100W is only a few percent louder than 50W, a watt is a watt, a blindfold test will reveal bias, etc) which are code for allegations and claims, and then there is actual empirical collected data, which is code for experience.

PS - at no time did we/guitarists run out of volume, and worked most of the night trying to not over-play the band.
 

tele12

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The old Peaveys are rated a bit more honestly than most SS amps.
A 65 watt Bandit will drown out most SS amps marketed at 100 watts.

The Laws of Physics have NOTHING to do what the Solid State Amplifier's marketing department stamps on the side of the amp box.

In a College textbook 1 watt might be 1 watt, on the floor of your local Guitar Center 1 tube watt equals 3 SS watts.

One thing that no one has talked about here is honesty in power rating. In the 70s the US Govt. started requiring makers of stereos to rate their amps using RMS power ratings, over a specified frequency range, and at a specified level of distortion. So, they forced them to be honest. An amp that produced 10 watts RMS at a reasonable level of distortion, say .1%, over the full freq. range of 20-20khz, could produce 100 or more watts for a millisecond at 1khz and at 10% or more distortion. So, many unscrupulous companies would call that a 100 watt amp. So, the govt. stepped in to keep them more honest. Now, tube amps, even in the world of hi-fi, produce much higher levels of distortion than SS amps. But, then that created a spec war, where makers would use excessive amounts of negative feedback to get ever lower and lower published distortion ratings, like .001%, which could actually hinder sound quality if done poorly. I think that those requirements have slipped some, because I know that many surround sound receivers rated at 100 watts will produce 100 watts into the two main front channels, but much lower power levels into the front and rear surround channels.
So, these power shenanigans may be why some SS guitar amps aren't as loud as they would seem they should be. An amp that claims to be 50 watts may actually only be 10. The majority of tube guitar amps are in the higher priced sector of the market, and those makers seem to be more honest, and receive more scrutiny if they aren't honest.

I did mention that in a few posts earlier.
SS guitar amps are also not rated at the low distortion levels audio amps are. The audio amps show distortion as fractions of a percentage, ex:.001, guitar amps are generally rated at about 10%.
When playing with that much distortion a SS amp becomes unlistenable.

Also the tube amp makers can't really lie as easily, people know a pair of EL84s will put out 15-18 watts.

Believing a SS guitar amp maker's rating is like believing a used car salesman when he says a car will go 200,000 miles.
 

Chiogtr4x

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Yeah, but no. The emulation of 22 tube watts takes place in the modeling section, not in the power amp.
100 watt class D amp doesn't emulate anything, it's just there to make the modeling louder. It's 100 watts solely for the purpose of eliminating any possibility of digital distortion. Think of the Class D amp as the P.A. for the Deluxe Reverb modeling.

Got it, that's a better explanation then, of what I read from Premier Guitar review, which is at least, how I understood thec100 watts.
 

tubelectron

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OK. So I watched the 2 videos by Pat Quilter :cool: :

1 - He demonstrates on what his amps can approach the tone of a Marshal, he does it well and that's all...

2 - He uses an oscilloscope, an audio generator and a dummy load to make what he calls a comparison, he does it well too, but again, that's all.

Mr Quilter doesn't check parameters or settings to remain the same between his tests. He simply turns knobs here and there and comments what he does. No measurement of any kind are made, and nothing remains really the same otherwise.

We see waveforms on a scope showing nothing surprising for anyone used to scope amplifiers, being tube or solid-state, and that's all...

In no way - repeat : in no way - Mr Quilter demonstrates or explain here that a Tube watt is louder than a Solid-State watt.

Sorry, @mjstamos : these tests are inconclusive to my eyes - provided that their aim was really to do a demonstration or to give an explanation "of-why-tube-watts-sound-louder-than-solid-state".

But it's me, OK ? :D

-tbln.
 
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KyAnne

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Does speaker efficiency and even/odd order harmonics (tube/solid state) output have anything to do with it?
A-B class vs D class amplifiers as well?
 

codamedia

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A watt is a watt, regardless of how it is produced.

The wattage rating of an amp is suppose to be an indication of how much "clean power" an amp has. It is suppose to be measured at a particular point of distortion (typically well under 1%). Tube amps can "pleasantly" go beyond that level but it won't be clean anymore. SS cannot go pleasantly beyond that level so that is where it stops. With all things equal, a 20 watt SS amp and a 20 watt tube amp will be the same volume while remaining "clean".

Example: A Fender Deluxe Reverb can produce 22 watts of clean power. It goes louder, but it is no longer clean when it does so. It cannot get louder without introducing power amp distortion beyond the point that should be acceptable for a wattage measurement.

THE VIDEO

He shows how the amp is measured with a dummy load... at that point it is clean. Then he swapped the dummy load with a reactive load... sure the amp was much louder, but it WAS NOT CLEAN anymore. It might still be a usable guitar amp tone, but it's not usable clean power anymore! The perception would certainly be a louder amp, but it would also be a dirtier amp!
 
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Chiogtr4x

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OK. So I watched the 2 videos by Pat Quilter :cool: :

1 - He demonstrates on what his amps can approach the tone of a Marshal, he does it well and that'a all...

2 - He uses an oscilloscope, an audio generator and a dummy load to make what he calls a comparison, he does it well too, but again, that's all.

Mr Quilter doesn't check parameters or settings to remain the same between his tests. He simply turns knobs here and there and comments what he does. No measurement of any kind are made, and nothing remains really the same otherwise.

We see waveforms on a scope showing nothing surprising for anyone used to scope amplifiers, being tube or solid-state, and that's all...

In no way - repeat : in no way - Mr Quilter demonstrates or explain here that a Tube watt is louder than a Solid-State watt.

Sorry, @mjstamos : these tests are inconclusive to my eyes - provided that their aim was really to do a demonstration or to give an explanation "of-why-tube-watts-sound-louder-than-solid-state".

But it's me, OK ? :D

-tbln.
I agree I didn't learn anything there I couldn't read the oscilloscope which I wouldn't understand even if I could but bottom line that's why I posted because I have testimony of the actual o p subject-matter I've played both and you can hear it
Sorry for the run-on sentence voice activation
 

Chiogtr4x

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It's funny
my current gigging amps are literally solid-state toys compared with what I used to use but they are perfect and they sound great, at least for me

Vox Pathfinder a Fender Frontman and my big amp is a a Blues Junior!
 

archtop_fjk

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I watched the video and it was very informative (especially how much intermodulation distortion plays a role in getting that Marshall "sizzle" ;)). But whether tube power (or perceived "volume", "loudness") is bigger than SS is, to me, irrelevant. If you need a 100W Marshall to get the volume required for your guitar, you can always find a SS amp to give you the same output. What matters more is the quality of the tone and that's perhaps where SS and tube amps differ most. Of course, modern modeling amps have taken care of the tone "quality" issue, right??? :rolleyes:

My favorite amp at the moment is my vintage Lab Series L5. The overdriven tone it can achieve is wonderful, and at 100W, it will put out far more volume than required by any possible venue I'd ever play at. (It also makes a great bass amp too :)).
 

beninma

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In no way - repeat : in no way - Mr Quilter demonstrates or explain here that a Tube watt is louder than a Solid-State watt.

This...

I thought this was an excellent video by the way.

But the Marshall is a 100w amp and the Quiter 202 is a 200w amp, and the Quilter amp is clearly louder in this video. You don't need a dB meter to see it, he shows it on the oscilloscope, which is taking the speaker out of the equation.

What I thought was so fascinating about this video is the way he demonstrates the features of the Quilter to mess with the wave form to simulate the output of the tube amp. This is really fascinating stuff and is such a fresh approach vs a modeler.

I haven't seen a Quilter amp in person.. I'd definitely love to check one out at some point.
 

MilwMark

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What surprises me the most is how many people replying either didn't watch the clip or didn't understand it, impossible to tell which from their replies.

Maybe because they were really long, meandering and just not-very-subtle commercials for his products, that actually had nothing to do with the alleged topic?
 

Telecastoff1

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My old SS Peavey's disagree with Mr. Quilter. My Special 130 has no problem keeping up with my buddies SF twin. It'll also hang with my Quilter TB200 in the volume dept, and it sounds better than the Quilter while doing so. It does weigh a little more than the quilter though.

My Bandit 65 is every bit as loud as my 40 and 50 watt tube amps. Hartley got it right with these amps back in the 80's.
Exactly! This is precisely the reason I gig with both of these amps, alternately and wherever and whenever the need arises. Depending on the gig, of course. My old Fender Twins and my Special 130's take very good care of my playing needs. Never a compromise in sound and/or reliability.
 




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