Thinking I We Don't Need Subwoofer For Band PA

[sax4blues]

2016 when I sold all the PA stuff we used a 15" subwoofer. At that time only the bass guitar and kick drum were in the sub.
Now I'm getting a PA together again and thinking hauling a subwoofer is not a significant requirement. The bass player has amp and we could put a little kick in the main just for definition. Also my personal sound preference in the audience is subs are wayyyyyy over done these days (may also be I've lost high end hearing).

What PA setups are your bands using?

 

[John Owen]

I completely agree. For my taste sub woofers tend to just muddy things up more often than not. I toyed with the idea of getting a couple of subs but the thought of having more stuff to schlep combined with the thought that I prefer a crisper less bottom heavy sound convinced me that my money and effort would be better spent elsewhere. Like so many things though, it depends on personal taste, the style of music you are playing and the type/size of venues.

 

[Tele-beeb]

We have one Yamaha 2-15 powered sub. Been gigging (together now) for several months, have yet to use the sub?
Gonna try it at a 4th(ish) of July festival style.
I’ll try to remember to report.

 

[ReverendRevolver]

My drummer has more PA equipment than 6 bands would need. You can probably get away with omitting the sub if you're not running bass through the PA. We blew a horn by running an upright bass through a preamp into the board. I don't remember if it got unhooked or replaced at this point.

But reccomendations depend style of music and most importantly room size. We don't hook up more than 4 speakers for practice, but we have column speakers for sidewash, extra subs, and a selection of monitors minimum for live.
Also, small rooms I'd be fine running a powered mixer and 2 speakers (speaker+horn in one box) with maybe 1 or 2 monitors.
Anything bigger, we would bring a mixer and have at least one amp, possibly a pair. That's based on what is in which rack box.

 

[kuch]

IIRC it seems that your Eon 610s should be enough. Although as they say the proof is in the pudding....

 

[Peegoo]

Unless you're playing house or disco, subs are way overrated.

 

[schmee]

For many gigs, especially clubs... you dont need them.

If you are going to mic the bass drum it's nice to have one and not push that through the vocal PA if you are just having one cab each side. For a few years we used subs on the main PA and it did add fullness outdoors. Sounded great, all JBL stuff. 18" subs with high end 15" mains on top of them... all powered speakers.
I find outdoors for city events etc (not real big) that Bass carries very well without mic'ing. Unless the bass amp has minimal power and speakers. Guitar loud on stage disappears entirely out 40 + feet if not mic'd!

I agree that sound men today have WAY too much sub going on. I saw Warren Haynes a few years back in Seattle. It was terrible. He was completely lost in the mix with the bass and bass drum super loud out front hip hop style...

Bottom line though for club work not needed.

 

[radtz]

Sacrilege.

 

[sax4blues]

I should elaborate we are a back yard party and church function band so never above moderate volume. We use guitar/bass amps so P.A. is just spread those sounds a little. I’m trying to go simple

 

[AAT65]

We don’t have a subwoofer and everything sounds fine.
We don’t run a lot of drums through the PA, just mics on bass drum, snare and sometimes hi hat - so the PA is just being used to pull them up a bit in the mix.

 

[dspellman1]

2016 when I sold all the PA stuff we used a 15" subwoofer. At that time only the bass guitar and kick drum were in the sub.
Now I'm getting a PA together again and thinking hauling a subwoofer is not a significant requirement. The bass player has amp and we could put a little kick in the main just for definition. Also my personal sound preference in the audience is subs are wayyyyyy over done these days (may also be I've lost high end hearing).

What PA setups are your bands using?

You may be right that subs are often overdone.

I like subs (and or cabinets that allow low end to live in a separate speaker) mostly to eliminate bottom end from trying to distort the rest of the sound.

If you're a guitar player, subs will seem foreign to you unless you're playing an extended range guitar or something downtuned. You're used to, let's say, a standard guitar amp with speakers that drop off rapidly below 110Hz and above 4000Hz. Your low E string fundamental is at 82 Hz, but you rarely hear that -- only the harmonics that "indicate" 82Hz.

If you're a bass player, a drummer or a keyboard player, you're outputting frequencies lower than that, and the power required to do that (even in a relatively decent set of 15" mains) can frequently take away from vocal and guitar fidelity. If you can hand those frequencies off to a sub powered by its own amplifier, you end up with clearer vocals and guitar.

We've also found that putting the bass into the PA (with subs) maintains the balance of lows to highs further into the crowd than running a separate bass amp. The definition of the bass disappears rapidly as folks down front soak up any treble that the bass amp might be putting out. It's not there to emphasize the bass (or the bass drum), but to maintain it in the overall sound.

One pet peeve: a good PA system should have front fills. Relying on side line arrays only deprives the folks in the expensive seats from hearing your band as it should be heard.

Second pet peeve: You'll know a good sound setup when you see the subs either down front or all stacked up on one side of the stage, and NOT in a stack on BOTH sides of the stage. It means that amateurs are at work, and they've never heard of bass power alleys.

 

[dspellman1]

Also my personal sound preference in the audience is subs are wayyyyyy over done these days (may also be I've lost high end hearing).

It should also be noted that subs aren't responsible for excess bass reproduction; the sound guys are.

My personal choice of amp cabinets has been to pick a cab that was capable of good reproduction and flat response down to maybe 40Hz. I run piano/organ/synths as well as guitars that can be switched to lower frequencies (right down to bass). I get clean sound all the way down to low end piano notes and B3 pedal tones. But just because the cabinet *can* reproduce those frequencies, it doesn't mean that they emphasis them.

 

[ndcaster]

If you can hand those frequencies off to a sub powered by its own amplifier, you end up with clearer vocals and guitar.

thanks, this is really helpful

how big is the distortion effect you're describing, and at what overall volume level does this become noticeable?

 

[Jakedog]

No subs here. I’ve thought about getting one. It might be nice for pushing the kick a little more when we’re outdoors. But that doesn’t happen often enough for it to really be an issue.

We run a pair of EON612 mains and a pair of EON610 monitors. It’s plenty. Anyplace we need more than that has its own PA and FOH person. I put just a little kick in the mains. Doesn’t take much.

We don’t mic guitars or bass. The amps have the power to do what they need to. So PA is just 3-4 vocals and a touch of kick.

 

[dspellman1]

thanks, this is really helpful

how big is the distortion effect you're describing, and at what overall volume level does this become noticeable?

All of this depends on the speakers you've got for "mains" and how much power you need to push them.
It takes about four times as much power to push out a note an octave down.

 

[loudboy]

For a rock band, in anything over a small club, I like to use them. They allow you to have a fuller sound, which does appeal to the audience, whether they know it or not.

We'd generally just run kick/bass, and it made it easy to get that nice kick/bass lock that gets people moving. For small PAs, I preferred front-loaded 18" boxes, as they're short throw and keep the bass on the dance floor.

 

[ndcaster]

For a rock band, in anything over a small club, I like to use them. They allow you to have a fuller sound, which does appeal to the audience, whether they know it or not.

We'd generally just run kick/bass, and it made it easy to get that nice kick/bass lock that gets people moving. For small PAs, I preferred front-loaded 18" boxes, as they're short throw and keep the bass on the dance floor.

Interesting. I don't put my 10s on sticks but just keep them waist level. Should that help with the bass?

 

[loudboy]

Interesting. I don't put my 10s on sticks but just keep them waist level. Should that help with the bass?

Your full range speakers should always be at or above ear level, in any room. And a 10" full range speaker will never deliver enough low end to really feel, you need subs for that.

I would run 12"/HF boxes on sticks, over 18" subs for my club bands. Very compact, very full-range sound. That lower octave is very important, IMHO.

 

[mfguitar]

We use the EV Evolve 50 (not a budget setup) and we mic everything every time and we get all the kick you want. The subs only have a 12 but they sound huge.

 

[cyclopean]

Unless you're playing house or disco, subs are way overrated.

Or industrial/ebm, or grind, or death metal, or doom, or sludge, or reggae, or some kind of dance music.