There is no D# in the key of Cm...

MilwMark

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I won't go bit by bit through what you've written to correct things but what really shines overall for me is the attitude you display while attempting to correct his 'attitude'. That's ironic, eh?

Do the people who celebrate their lack of music theory knowledge believe that our musical ancestors who developed this language/code were frivolously wasting their time? That it was just an excuse not to practice or jam with friends who were doing the real work? I sincerely don't understand the attitude.

At the end of our days will all us uptight 'theory people' be lying on our death beds shaking our fists in the air at the self-righteous "unschooled" who wrote D# rather than Eb...and then argued in it's favour? I really doubt it. But that doesn't mean that while we spend time within the context of music that those trivial things aren't useful, therefore giving them some level of importance...of course that's only if a person believes clear and efficient communication is important in that context. And for some it doesn't matter and for others it matters.

I will readily acknowledge it is a near certainty that everyone posting in this thread has more formal theory than me. I'm not sure I am celebrating that, nor that I am so hopeless it is fair to refer to me as unschooled. But I'm a big boy.

Possibly musicians who are not also formally schooled in theory find the perceived attitude and in the case of your post, arguably exclusionary language and intent off-putting.

Shall we measure and take photos on the desk?

Or post links to the various records we have put out?

I found your Batman panels very funny so I don't think we need to go all the way to pistols at 10 paces.

Or we could just agree to disagree like gentlepeople?

As a practical aside, I'm with @sax4blues and @EsquireOK.
 
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chris m.

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It's kind of weird that D is never sharp. E is flat. OTOH, you can have both F# and Gb in your musical language. C can be sharp and D can be flat. Traditions.

You can certainly have a D#. for example, the key of C# major is 7 sharps: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#. Note that we normally think of E# as being F, and of B# as being C, but this is how it is notated with classical charts.
 

gabasa

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It's kind of weird that D is never sharp. E is flat. OTOH, you can have both F# and Gb in your musical language. C can be sharp and D can be flat. Traditions.
I know this has already been answered, but of course there's a D#, and silly to even suggest it doesn't exist. What's the third in B major, again?
There is 1000% a key of C# major, too. It's not really anything to debate because it's in the theory books, it just doesn't get used much.

I spent years working towards grade 10 RCM classical guitar when I was younger, as well as all the theory training that comes along with it, and there was always a key of C# major in the books. However, diving into blues and jazz at an older age, I find that jazz books focus on the most-important, most-used keys. Classical teaches all the keys, but focuses on certain ones more than others. It's all good, and all correct, just different approaches.

I've heard that the reason that some keys get used more than others is because guitar players like to play where the dots are on their necks more than in between the dots, lol. Maybe there's some truth to it.
 

MatsEriksson

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It's been a long time, but as I recall that's the harmonic (because it includes the leading tone) scale; the melodic minor is with the 6 and 7 both raised on the way up, natural on the way down. I always liked the harmonic minor for practice because of the augmented seconds; lots of position changes at speed.
C'mon reveal your real name now, Yngwie...
 

MatsEriksson

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...I hated it when people in a band start arguing over note and chord spellings. It wastes time and creates confusion.
...
About 15-20 years ago, if I was in or out of a band, regardless if I knew them, if they said that "Sweet Home Alabama" was in D, I just packed my things up and left. Not something I would be part of ever. Because I knew from experience that all this will make a huge time-waster later down the road. Especially if there were more than one guitarist in the band. If everyone is on the same level, and has exactly the same name for a note or, especially, key, thingsgo smoother. We had folks sayin "Well, it could be D modal, or mixolydian". Well, my friend I told him, that's a scale mode, not a key.We have enough trouble with older people grown up and brainwashed in the H thing. And younger stays/says in B. That is enough for wasting time already.

If you have chord charts with them written out, it is considerably better and easier on the eyes to read everything Eb, and flats if it's in Cm, than having D sharp in there. Your reading and understanding goes much quicker, and its easier on faster chord changes or tunes. The only thing where you can have 4 different names on it is diminished chords, which comes in 2-3 variants anyway. But even there I want the naming of the diminished chord to be "root" or the first note of the chord.
 

boneyguy

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I will readily acknowledge it is a near certainty that everyone posting in this thread has more formal theory than me. I'm not sure I am celebrating that, nor that I am so hopeless it is fair to refer to me as unschooled. But I'm a big boy.

Possibly musicians who are not also formally schooled in theory find the perceived attitude and in the case of your post, arguably exclusionary language and intent off-putting.

Shall we measure and take photos on the desk?

Or post links to the various records we have put out?

I found your Batman panels very funny so I don't think we need to go all the way to pistols at 10 paces.

Or we could just agree to disagree like gentlepeople?

As a practical aside, I'm with @sax4blues and @EsquireOK.


When I said unschooled I was directly quoting you...which is why I put it in quotes....that's how you described yourself. Your use of the word "glad", to me, adds a 'celebratory' element to being unschooled...


Sometimes I'm glad I'm just an unschooled guitar player .....


I'm glad you found my Batman stuff funny...I think we can remain friends.... :)
 

NoTeleBob

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I know this has already been answered, but of course there's a D#, and silly to even suggest it doesn't exist. What's the third in B major, again?
There is 1000% a key of C# major, too. It's not really anything to debate because it's in the theory books, it just doesn't get used much.

I spent years working towards grade 10 RCM classical guitar when I was younger, as well as all the theory training that comes along with it, and there was always a key of C# major in the books. However, diving into blues and jazz at an older age, I find that jazz books focus on the most-important, most-used keys. Classical teaches all the keys, but focuses on certain ones more than others. It's all good, and all correct, just different approaches.

I've heard that the reason that some keys get used more than others is because guitar players like to play where the dots are on their necks more than in between the dots, lol. Maybe there's some truth to it.

My point is not that it doesn't exist. More that no one ever says "Hey, let's try it in D#". Or, "I love the way that D# sounds". Other traditions might suggest that you say "D#" in a scale (instead of the "Eb" we'd defer to), but it's only another tradition in nomenclature.

No one really wants to talk about D#. It's the red-haired step-child.
 

gabasa

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... no one ever says "Hey, let's try it in D# ...

I think there's some confusion in this discussion between keys signatures and notes. In the order of sharps, there's no D# major scale, but there's an Eb major scale in the order of flats. So when you're talking about what key to play a song in, it would of course have to be Eb because a key signature for D# doesn't exist. You're right about that. Why is it this way? Because the key signatures get too confusing when you veer from the order of sharps and flats. For example:
  • Key of Eb major: Bb, Eb, Ab. Easy peasy.
  • However, if we follow the TTSTTTS rule for the major scale, the key of D# major works out to D#, E#, Fx, G#, A#, B# and Cx. Two double sharps and very confusing!
Respectfully though, a note is a note. If you're playing in B major, the third is D#, not Eb. Speaking the notes properly has been unanimously drilled into me by acoustic, classical, blues/rock and jazz teachers over the decades and I regularly hear the term D# applied to a note.
 

gabasa

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Hey, what's the second note in that bar? According to Pat Metheny, it's a D#.
Mods... if I can't post a single bar of music to this forum (I am legally, just not sure of the forum rules here), please delete this post and I apologize in advance.
This is actually a great, educational forum thread.

IMG_5287.jpg
 

Charlie Bernstein

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...nice lady sending me chord charts.

Got some gigs coming up, adding lead guitar and vocals to a former duo, now wanting to go out as a trio.

It shouldn't bother me, but it does. Cm is 3 flats -- Eb, Ab, Bb. The scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb. Eb is right there. D#? Nope.
And you want a D# because . . . ?

=O.
 

somebodyelseuk

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6 pages... it MUST have been mentioned by now...

Real musicians use a system of writing music better known as notation. It involves five lines with dots and funny symbols on and between the lines. Ar the start of the notation they use funny symbols that indicate to the musicians what key to play in.
Sometimes they use flats, sometimes sharps.

Try writing the key signature for A Sharp of C Sharp, for example, and you'll see why they're always written as B Flat and D Flat.
 

Jay Jernigan

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6 pages... it MUST have been mentioned by now...

Real musicians use a system of writing music better known as notation. It involves five lines with dots and funny symbols on and between the lines. Ar the start of the notation they use funny symbols that indicate to the musicians what key to play in.
Sometimes they use flats, sometimes sharps.

Try writing the key signature for A Sharp of C Sharp, for example, and you'll see why they're always written as B Flat and D Flat.
This is what I was saying. The major key that resides between C and D is usually written as five flats rather than seven sharps.
 

chris m.

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Yup. C# major key is 7 sharps: C#, D#. E#, F#, G#, A#, B#. That's the key signature. If you need to play a note that is flatted a semitone then you use the natural symbol.
If you need to go up a semitone you use the double sharp symbol.

upload_2021-5-14_10-45-48.png
is the natural symbol. Double sharp is:
upload_2021-5-14_10-47-15.png
 

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