There is no D# in the key of Cm...

Larry F

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I hated it when people in a band start arguing over note and chord spellings. It wastes time and creates confusion.

Not everyone in the band is using the same spelling system. Sometimes SRV thinks he's in G, but it is sounding Gb or F# due to tuning. Yngwie, in his concerti, plays Am in his guitar fingerings, but the poor violinists' work is made more difficult and less sure when they have to play in Ab minor. When someone writes a concerto for detuned guitar and standard-tuned orchestra, how do you title the work? Concerto in Am or Concerto in Abm?
 

Edgar Allan Presley

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The drummer who corrected the bassist t studied classical piano for many years. He found that paying gigs were easier to come by. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of show tunes and is an ace sight reader as well.
He makes good money playing in retirement homes on weekends, far better than playing blues with us.

I had a music theory prof in college who was a concert pianist supplementing his income by playing drums in country bands. Any chance your drummer taught at North Texas in the mid-90s?
 

oldunc

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In orchestras, the string section rules and they prefer sharp keys. I would bet that C# major would win over Db major as a key signature choice.


NO, really not. String players like sharp keys for the same reason as guitarists- convenient open notes, which are the same however you write the key signature. Key signatures of more than six accidentals are almost never used- possibly in passing as part of a modulation.
 

BigDaddyLH

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NO, really not. String players like sharp keys for the same reason as guitarists- convenient open notes, which are the same however you write the key signature. Key signatures of more than six accidentals are almost never used- possibly in passing as part of a modulation.

I agree it would be less common, but string players are "used" to sharp keys.

As for guitarists, they seem to prefer sharp keys, too, eh? Jazz guitarists are probably more used to flat keys because ... horn players. I bet a sight-reading experient would bear this out.
 

MilwMark

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Let me clarify for the nitpickers -- if Eb is in the key signature, you don't refer to it as a D#, OK?

So I honestly can't tell if you are being self-deprecating or ironic referring to others as "nitpickers". Or if you are playing it straight and don't see the irony of doing so in this thread:

...nice lady sending me chord charts.

Got some gigs coming up, adding lead guitar and vocals to a former duo, now wanting to go out as a trio.

It shouldn't bother me, but it does. Cm is 3 flats -- Eb, Ab, Bb. The scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb. Eb is right there. D#? Nope.

Clearly someone who knows enough theory to know the chords of the key of Cm and to try to argue (without stating very clearly - though it is admittedly possible-to-likely the lack of clarity I perceive is not your text but my theory limits causing me to have to work out in steps what might be obvious) by reference to the Cm scale and how the single tones in it are typically denoted what the chords in that key "should" be called, should also know that in common guitar usage the chord Cm and D# are the same thing?

And if you are so steeped in theory that seeing the D# reference would confuse you or slow you down on the fly, you could simply strike through D# on your charts and write in Eb?

Even though she actually wrote charts and apparently with the correct chords (even if by theory or by common usage writing the name of one of them a different way might be desirable)?

I choose to believe you are dryly tongue-in-cheek with the thread and poking serious fun at yourself by referring to posters in it as "nitpickers".

As for the actual theory, it is amusing to see folks very deeply versed in it from various perspectives debating which is correct - or even whether each is equally correct and from what perspective - with support for their positions. Sometimes I'm glad I'm just an unschooled guitar player who can see D# on a chart, know what someone means and how it fits in and not give it another thought.
 
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boneyguy

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So I honestly can't tell if you are being self-deprecating or ironic referring to others as "nitpickers". Or if you are playing it straight and don't see the irony of doing so in this thread:



Clearly someone who knows enough theory to know the chords of the key of Cm and to try to argue (without stating very clearly) by reference to the Cm scale and how the single tones in it are typically denoted what the chords in that key "should" be called, should also know that in common guitar usage the chord Cm and D# are the same thing?

And if you are so steeped in theory that seeing the D# reference would confuse you or slow you down on the fly, you could simply strike through D# on your charts and write in Eb?

Even though she actually wrote charts and apparently with the correct chords (even if by theory or by common usage writing the name of one of them a different way might be desirable)?

I choose to believe you are dryly tongue-in-cheek with the thread and poking serious fun at yourself by referring to posters in it as "nitpickers".

As for the actual theory, it is amusing to see folks very deeply versed in it from various perspectives debating which is correct - or even whether each is equally correct and from what perspective - with support for their positions. Sometimes I'm glad I'm just an unschooled guitar player who can see D# on a chart, know what someone means and how it fits in and not give it another thought.

I won't go bit by bit through what you've written to correct things but what really shines overall for me is the attitude you display while attempting to correct his 'attitude'. That's ironic, eh?

Do the people who celebrate their lack of music theory knowledge believe that our musical ancestors who developed this language/code were frivolously wasting their time? That it was just an excuse not to practice or jam with friends who were doing the real work? I sincerely don't understand the attitude.

At the end of our days will all us uptight 'theory people' be lying on our death beds shaking our fists in the air at the self-righteous "unschooled" who wrote D# rather than Eb...and then argued in it's favour? I really doubt it. But that doesn't mean that while we spend time within the context of music that those trivial things aren't useful, therefore giving them some level of importance...of course that's only if a person believes clear and efficient communication is important in that context. And for some it doesn't matter and for others it matters.
 

BigDaddyLH

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At the end of our days will all us uptight 'theory people' be lying on our death beds shaking our fists in the air at the self-righteous "unschooled" who wrote D# rather than Eb...and then argued in it's favour? I really doubt it. But that doesn't mean that while we spend time within the context of music that those trivial things aren't useful, therefore giving them some level of importance...of course that's only if a person believes clear and efficient communication is important in that context. And for some it doesn't matter and for others it matters.

Note to self: don't put off compiling your deathbed regrets. Do it this weekend!
 

boneyguy

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59evwn.jpg
 

Larry Mal

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I can't really follow this conversation all the way through, but they teach you that it's very bad form to have flats and sharps in a piece of music. It confuses the people playing the piece, it's bad form, you would never see D# in a key that E was flat in.
 

oldunc

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I agree it would be less common, but string players are "used" to sharp keys.

As for guitarists, they seem to prefer sharp keys, too, eh? Jazz guitarists are probably more used to flat keys because ... horn players. I bet a sight-reading experient would bear this out.



Jazz players generally don't use a lot of open notes- they're frequently called on to transpose and tend to stick to fingerings that work in all keys, and open strings are generally to be avoided in passage work. A well trained jazz player can read a chart in Bb and play it in E with no problem.
 

charlie chitlin

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If you develop the right context, you can play any note...and not just as a passing tone.
You can play an A# in an A Blues if you set it up right.
 

magicfingers99

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I learned that for a scale ALL 7 letters, A-G, need to be represented and Sharps and Flats are never mixed. If this cannot be accomplished then the key does not exist.
sure, but its all made up. I mean there are no natural laws of music, its all conventions. just as long as everybody knows what everybody else means its all good.

and if you never make a mistake, you never learn to improvise....
 

EsquireOK

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You’re right. It should not bother you. It only matters when reading sheet music, and even then, it’s only for the sake of reading ease.

I don’t even think of music in note names anyhow. I only think in intervals. Way more useful and less confusing, and details like this are a non issue.
 




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