The Tipping Point - A question for advanced players

[Chedmus]

Interesting question:
I've been playing for over 40 yrs.
Over that period I found that I only managed to learn new stuff at an useful rate, in the first 10 yrs or so, and since then invested most of my time in getting the feel right.
(In general I feel players concentrate too much on learning riffs rather than playing from the soul)
As I get older, I can get my head and fingers 'round most riffs that mortals can play, but despite having all the on-line tips to hand, unless I practice them every day for weeks on end, I can't retain them .
In summary, memory is the biggest factor affecting my personal "tipping point".

 

[Fuelish]

Tipped through that point at one time, but in the decades since, have tipped back the other direction since...can play passably well, a lot of “non musician” friends/ acquaintances think I’m really good, but, nah. Have forgotten most of what I ever learned, play more by muscle memory/feel/what I hear...don’t ask me to read music, although I do remember many chords...I’m a hack after all these years and guitars, but...still having fun

 

[deytookerjaabs]

The above is why I always tell my friends, and my kids, who don't have it, that having perfect pitch is an advantage. It is something you are born with, and it can't be developed. But it's only a 50 yard head start in a 26 mile marathon. Hendrix had perfect pitch, but likely non of the Beatles did, Elton John has perfect pitch, but I don't think Billy Joel does. Your potential is so much bigger than you know.
\

I'm sorry...



But someone who has perfect pitch should be the first to realize Jimi Hendrix didn't have perfect pitch.



That's not even debatable. As a music grad myself I've met very few people with perfect pitch but that's enough to know Hendrix has self-developed relative pitch.


It's nice you were too smart for poor musician classical professors so decided to get an engineering degree but perhaps the goose and the gander don't really match up like you say.

 

[JIMMY JAZZMAN]

The truth be told. Certain combinations of notes and chords are "pleasing" to the ear, but sometimes
getting out of the box, starts a creativity, to where the sky's the limit and you allow yourself to actually
hear every note and/or chord in slow-mo. Sort of like an athlete, when the game slows down for them.
That's the "mojo" goal we all aspire to.

 

[dbrnhm]

For those of you who might be considered by some (if not yourself) as an advanced player, in the course of your progression, did you encounter what I am call a "tipping point"?

What I mean by a "tipping point" is a point where many different aspects of music learning and the guitar in particular all started to come together, resulting in a rapid acceleration of your ability to learn?

I have been playing guitar for almost 30 years, with varying degrees of seriousness (but the same general lack of obvious talent for it). In the last five, thanks in part to the proliferation of high quality online learning material, I think I have advanced quite a bit more rapidly. And in the last few months, it feels like this (imaginary?) "tipping point" is starting to happen. It seems like I can learn phrases, licks and songs much, much more rapidly. Instructional material that might have taken me months to crawl through I can watch and internalize in weeks. New musical information (like a new lick) seems to drop into an existing framework, or be a seem more like a slight variation on something that at some level I already know, and thus much easier to learn, retain, and incorporate.

Does this sound familiar to any of you? I am not saying that I am now a great player - there are all sorts of major areas of weakness that I am working on (and others that I am probably not even aware of). But it seems like in very short order, the whole process suddenly became a lot easier, and a level of musicianship that previously seemed unattainable could be in striking distance if I keep up the work.

 

[chris m.]

A wonderful tipping point is when you can reliably play whatever lead line you are singing in your head— and where that lead line is not confined to any single pattern or scale but instead fluidly and melodically overlays the chord changes... that is the goal for soloing, imo. For chord playing, being able to use lots of different voicings to create interesting movements such as pedal tones or ascending/ descending bass notes is the goal— and arguably harder than soloing. See Joe Pass for Exhibit A...

 

[Stanford Guitar]

I'm sorry...



But someone who has perfect pitch should be the first to realize Jimi Hendrix didn't have perfect pitch.



That's not even debatable. As a music grad myself I've met very few people with perfect pitch but that's enough to know Hendrix has self-developed relative pitch.


It's nice you were too smart for poor musician classical professors so decided to get an engineering degree but perhaps the goose and the gander don't really match up like you say.

http://archives.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/03_09/perfectpitch.html

 

[koula]

Sorry if my diatribes came off a bit preachy. I've thought a lot about this issue!

Not at all. I found your post illuminating because I'm one of those people to whom playing came easily. As soon as I figured out that I could figure out whatever I wanted, I got bored with playing and was less dedicated, and I'm one of those people who coasted. I actually wrote down what you said because it so aptly describes my experience. It's some kind of affirmation, I guess, and instead of berating myself for not practicing, I can let that behavior go, so thanks for your post!

 

[deytookerjaabs]

http://archives.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/03_09/perfectpitch.html

I've seen the quotes everywhere about Hendrix having perfect pitch, most are adverts for ear training programs....this is an article written by a Yale grad, not a study on Hendrix.

Even worse, it goes into a pitch on "Perfect Pitch Training Course" which is a snake oil world.


Hendrix worked with many classically trained and heavy cats over the years from his early days with some R&B horn/piano guys to Eddie Kramer et cetera. Eddie would know if he had perfect pitch, no question, Eddie says time and time again he "had a great ear." Hendrix would ask him about chords on the piano all the time....


Perfect pitch isn't a complicated idea, a person's brain makes definitive and exacting connections with frequency. Once the person is told what those frequencies are it stays with them for life and Hendrix had hundreds of opportunities playing in key centers with musicians his entire life to cement his absolute pitch.

Yet, he didn't have absolute pitch. Very few people do and the 3 I know of personally all had at least one parent who was a music educator and went suzuki practically after they learned to walk.

It's a total myth that Hendrix had perfect pitch, everyone would know it right away as it is certainly incredible to have friends who have it. But, it's not a "50 Yard Start" like you claim compared to someone with excellent relative pitch. There's thousands of guys with relative pitch who can transcribe at a crazy level of musical memory as well as anyone with absolute pitch.

Even right at the end of Wiki the site quotes what everyone should know:

Owing to uncertainty in the historical record, it is often impossible to determine whether notable composers and musicians of the past had absolute pitch. Since absolute pitch is rare in European musical culture, claims that any particular musician possessed it are difficult to evaluate.

 

[Karl Beach]

I'll answer this from the standpoint of a professional educator. The human brain, unlike digital computing devices, processes and associates information (an aggregation of which constitutes an understanding) and formulates skills holographically. A complete understanding/skill might be referred to as a schema (I'm playing a bit loose with definitions for brevity sake). The brain can also make complex associations (links) between schema. So, initial proficiency in any activity starts slowly as initial schema are formed, then accelerates (virtually without limit...rejoice) as more and more schema can more quickly be interconnected multidimensionally. Bottom line: practice seriously and jam/noodle playfully to unleash the formidable power of your brain. Rock on!

 

[matrix]

I'll answer this from the standpoint of a professional educator. The human brain, unlike digital computing devices, processes and associates information (an aggregation of which constitutes an understanding) and formulates skills holographically. A complete understanding/skill might be referred to as a schema (I'm playing a bit loose with definitions for brevity sake). The brain can also make complex associations (links) between schema. So, initial proficiency in any activity starts slowly as initial schema are formed, then accelerates (virtually without limit...rejoice) as more and more schema can more quickly be interconnected multidimensionally. Bottom line: practice seriously and jam/noodle playfully to unleash the formidable power of your brain. Rock on!

Great post. This idea of linking schema makes all sorts of sense to me for learning music, and would seem to be a very apt model for what I feel is happening.

Is there anything you would point the lay reader to for more info on this topic? I have never seen this concept outlined before.

 

[dougstrum]

I can think of a couple of turning points, which were pretty early in my playing.

I started out learning to play by getting my brother to show me what he got at his lesson. For about a year and a half he took lessons from a jazzer; seems all we did was play scale exercises
My brother quit lessons and we got a couple of songbooks~that was a real turning point, learning to play chords and changes for songs
The next turning point was when I figured out that when playing single note lines, that if I sang the melody in my head, I could spin out harmony lines. Guess the scale exercises finally paid off

 

[bluetele54]

Sounds like you suddenly learned how to learn.
People who can put there own ideas aside and begin to accept the good information that is being given, seem to make sudden advancements in their ability to learn and progress.

For me it was two things.
1) My guitar teacher told me to stop playing scales and start playing "ideas" that were related to the chords I was covering. That was HUGE!
2) He told me to play a major scale and flat the "1." Then play the scale again and flat the "2." Then the "3" and so on. The sounds that came forward were astonishing and I was able to relate them all to the major/ionian scale and thus pulled myself out of the "pentatonic rut" I had fallen into. Th purpose wasn't to learn new scales. It was to learn the way all 12 notes relate to the ionian, the mother of all music.
My playing took a huge leap forward and I became fearless to take the stage with anyone. I've had the opportunity to play with some of my all-time favorite musicians and actually landed on my feet. One key ingredient, beyond knowing what you're doing is, to know when to sit back if you're not positive of what's happening. LOL.

It’s interesting to read your reply, as well as others.
I don’t recall being concerned about too much when I began playing, and least of all a “tipping point”, I just wanted to play.
When I started out on guitar (1970), I’d already had a gateway to the stage because I was a musical harmonica player at 17 (actually heard and responded correctly to chords, mood, and environment), so in a way, that was a tipping point, done!
After graduating high school, I had the good fortune to live 2 blocks down from the original site of “Bananas-at-Large” in San Francisco.
That became my school, watching pros work a guitar all day, then going home at night and working out what I could retain.
I was “hands on guitar” at LEAST 10 hours a day.
Being on stage a lot at that time was a gift, so I could apply anything I learned and had enough of a “give a isher” to not futz it up.
Within two years I was standing on stage, gigging (in Mendocino) with ex-members the Byrds, Flying Burritos, Canned Heat, and the Turtles (they all had places in Comptche, 14 miles inland from the town of Mendocino).
I’ll never forget the 1st gig we did at Crown Hall in town, as we’d gone through all our rehearsed material, and it became “Watch Joel” as in Joel Scott Hill.
THAT was a HUGE moment, and a rite of passage.
I used my learning skills, critical listening (as in listening to records and following the individual and collective responsibilities of each instrument) and stage experience constantly to get better.
Those skills served me well in countless gigs over a 45 year period.
Imagine having to do a gig with Dr. John with no rehearsal other than a 2 minute sound check with the rhythm section where they wanted to see if I could play.
I could, and did the best I could under the circumstances.
That subsequently led to me being a west coast call with Mac over a seven year period, with highlight gigs in Brazil and Japan, a week at the Village Gate in NYC, and the Monterey Blues Fest in 1991.
Upshot is, life is a “tipping point”.
Like Don Wehr used to say, “WHEN, You’re Ready!”

hope all that made sense...

 

[hepular]

http://archives.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/03_09/perfectpitch.html

then he didn't care too much about always playing in tune or in rhythm, for that matter . . . & both wilson pickett and the isleys fired him for being too late, too loud, and not always in tune . . .

 

[Stanford Guitar]

then he didn't care too much about always playing in tune or in rhythm, for that matter . . . & both wilson pickett and the isleys fired him for being too late, too loud, and not always in tune . . .

One of the world's great violin prodigies, I think she's 12 here.....Is she also out of tune and off rhythm, how can that be...? I'll leave it to the educated musicians to figure out.

 

[bluetele54]

A wonderful tipping point is when you can reliably play whatever lead line you are singing in your head— and where that lead line is not confined to any single pattern or scale but instead fluidly and melodically overlays the chord changes... that is the goal for soloing, imo. For chord playing, being able to use lots of different voicings to create interesting movements such as pedal tones or ascending/ descending bass notes is the goal— and arguably harder than soloing. See Joe Pass for Exhibit A...

Or Ted Greene, who was constantly hearing and moving in, at least, 4 voices.
It was amazing to be in a room when he played.
It was always hushed

 

[Stanford Guitar]

I've seen the quotes everywhere about Hendrix having perfect pitch, most are adverts for ear training programs....this is an article written by a Yale grad, not a study on Hendrix.

Even worse, it goes into a pitch on "Perfect Pitch Training Course" which is a snake oil world.


Hendrix worked with many classically trained and heavy cats over the years from his early days with some R&B horn/piano guys to Eddie Kramer et cetera. Eddie would know if he had perfect pitch, no question, Eddie says time and time again he "had a great ear." Hendrix would ask him about chords on the piano all the time....


Perfect pitch isn't a complicated idea, a person's brain makes definitive and exacting connections with frequency. Once the person is told what those frequencies are it stays with them for life and Hendrix had hundreds of opportunities playing in key centers with musicians his entire life to cement his absolute pitch.

Yet, he didn't have absolute pitch. Very few people do and the 3 I know of personally all had at least one parent who was a music educator and went suzuki practically after they learned to walk.

It's a total myth that Hendrix had perfect pitch, everyone would know it right away as it is certainly incredible to have friends who have it. But, it's not a "50 Yard Start" like you claim compared to someone with excellent relative pitch. There's thousands of guys with relative pitch who can transcribe at a crazy level of musical memory as well as anyone with absolute pitch.

Even right at the end of Wiki the site quotes what everyone should know:

Both of these guys have 'great ears.' But you have to listen carefully to appreciate just how good.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

then he didn't care too much about always playing in tune or in rhythm, for that matter . . . & both wilson pickett and the isleys fired him for being too late, too loud, and not always in tune . . .

Absolute Pitch is not about being in tune though you'd obviously have complete recognition of where you are on the map so to speak.


It's just aural imaging of frequency. If you show a kid a drawing of a butterfly and tell them it's a butterfly they'll understand the definition of the shape. If you show them a drawing of a bear and tell them it's a bear, forever they'll recognize a bear from a butterfly. In absolute pitch, your brain permanently connects note/frequency like this, a D and a D# will always be different and will be instantly recognizable because you have a concrete aural image of the note. So, it's a nice thing. But, anyone can be taught relative pitch and come out way ahead of the game.

So, you can imagine when you posses the ability to discern frequency/notes like this once someone tells you what that note is, that's it! Forever a Bb is a Bb. And, when you have a friend that can call tonal centers out of thin air, perfectly, every damn time without ever being wrong it's crazy obvious. Also, this is why theory and general training comes to little kids with absolute pitch a bit easier, they have a perfect frame of reference.

Having absolute pitch without early early child music education is almost non-existent, then you're getting into the savant (which almost always coincides with disability and ability) world but if you get to a brain early enough those connections can be made.



That's why something in this thread smells funny. Hendrix obviously didn't have absolute pitch, everyone would know about it if he did and if you had it yourself you'd be able to discern the fact pretty easily.

 

[chris m.]

My Mom has perfect pitch. She started playing piano at an early age.

I think I may be getting close to it. Whenever I pick up the guitar I first sing what I think is a low E in my head or out loud, then I see how close I come to the true note. Probably 8 out of 10 times I get it right, but sometimes I'll be singing a little flat-- as low as an actual E flat.

So it's not crystal perfect like it is for my Mom. But it's a mixed blessing. If she hears music that is more than just a few cents out of tune with the concert pitch standard of 440 Hz, to her it is like fingernails on a blackboard. Even though the concert is played in perfect relative pitch, in her brain she's hearing it as being flat or sharp the whole time.

There's a good Wiki on the topic-- for years concert C was all over the place....and still is to people who can hear it.

Current concert pitches[edit]
Despite such confusion, A = 440 Hz is the only official standard and is widely used around the world. Many orchestras in the United Kingdom adhere to this standard as concert pitch.[18] In the United States some orchestras use A = 440 Hz, while others, such as the New York Philharmonic, use A = 442 Hz.[19] The latter is also often used as a tuning frequency in Europe,[citation needed] especially in Denmark, France, Hungary, Italy, Norway and Switzerland.[18] Nearly all modern symphony orchestras in Germany and Austria and many in other countries in continental Europe (such as Russia and Spain) tune to A = 443 Hz.[18]

In practice most orchestras tune to a note given out by the oboe, and most oboists use an electronic tuning device when playing the tuning note. Some orchestras tune using an electronic tone generator.[20] When playing with fixed-pitch instruments such as the piano, the orchestra will generally tune to them—a piano will normally have been tuned to the orchestra's normal pitch. Overall, it is thought that the general trend since the middle of the 20th century has been for standard pitch to rise, though it has been rising far more slowly than it has in the past. Some orchestras like the Berlin Philharmonic now use a slightly lower pitch (443 Hz) than their highest previous standard (445 Hz).[21]

Many modern ensembles which specialize in the performance of Baroque music have agreed on a standard of A = 415 Hz.[citation needed] An exact equal-tempered semitone lower than 440 Hz would be 415.30 Hz; this is rounded to the nearest integer. In principle this allows for playing along with modern fixed-pitch instruments if their parts are transposed down a semitone. It is, however, common performance practice, especially in the German Baroque idiom, to tune certain works to Chorton, approximately a semitone higher than 440 Hz (460–470 Hz) (e.g., Pre-Leipzig period cantatas of Bach).[22]

Orchestras in Cuba typically use A436 as the pitch so that strings, which are difficult to obtain, last longer. In 2015 American pianist Simone Dinnerstein brought attention to this issue and later traveled to Cuba with strings donated by friends.[23][24]

 

[dasherf17]

For those of you who might be considered by some (if not yourself) as an advanced player, in the course of your progression, did you encounter what I am call a "tipping point"?

What I mean by a "tipping point" is a point where many different aspects of music learning and the guitar in particular all started to come together, resulting in a rapid acceleration of your ability to learn?

I have been playing guitar for almost 30 years, with varying degrees of seriousness (but the same general lack of obvious talent for it). In the last five, thanks in part to the proliferation of high quality online learning material, I think I have advanced quite a bit more rapidly. And in the last few months, it feels like this (imaginary?) "tipping point" is starting to happen. It seems like I can learn phrases, licks and songs much, much more rapidly. Instructional material that might have taken me months to crawl through I can watch and internalize in weeks. New musical information (like a new lick) seems to drop into an existing framework, or be a seem more like a slight variation on something that at some level I already know, and thus much easier to learn, retain, and incorporate.

Does this sound familiar to any of you? I am not saying that I am now a great player - there are all sorts of major areas of weakness that I am working on (and others that I am probably not even aware of). But it seems like in very short order, the whole process suddenly became a lot easier, and a level of musicianship that previously seemed unattainable could be in striking distance if I keep up the work.

Tell me if I'm understanding correctly...I reached a point playing with bands where we had played with others so long that any song we had played prior to this group came out quicker or even spontaneously on stage...sounding like it was on the set list to begin with....
In that regard, been there done that...it's an awesome feeling...