The song 'bout the shack outside of LaGrange

[DougF]

Theory question I've always had about the ZZ Top song La Grange. The song uses the John Lee Hooker chord progression in the key of A, A to C to D. If A is the one and D is the four, how does the C fit in? Should it not be a Cm? The song works though as is, just curious from a theory angle.

 

[fakeocaster]

Its just a blues scale lick played over the I chord

 

[drf64]

I've driven through LaGrange a few times. I have yet to find China Grove, however.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

I've driven through LaGrange a few times. I have yet to find China Grove, however.

I'm starting to see a pattern. Joe Jackson couldn't find Chinatown.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

Theory question I've always had about the ZZ Top song La Grange. The song uses the John Lee Hooker chord progression in the key of A, A to C to D. If A is the one and D is the four, how does the C fit in? Should it not be a Cm? The song works though as is, just curious from a theory angle.

If you're a college boy, you can call the C the bIII. But only if you're a college boy

Why not Cm? I think you mean why not C#m? And that answer to that is that C#m sounds jazzy (the C#m sounds like AMaj7 there) not bluesy.

A C D is a super common bluesly progression. But what's up with the C? To my ear it's standing in for a Amin7, so you get:

1. AMaj -> Amin7 - cool
2. Amin7 -> D7 - ii V

 

[RodeoTex]

I've driven through LaGrange a few times. I have yet to find China Grove, however.

You'll find China Grove on Hwy 87 in the south part of San Antonio. It may have been a separate town at one time but is surrounded by SA now. At least I guess that's the one referred to in the song.
Not a very good part of town either way. I'm sure you could find Doobies there any time of day or night.

 

[Charlesinator]

I'm not sure I follow you Doug. The song is essentially the Hooker riff out of a it modulates up to C for the solo then back to A for the last verse and outro. There is a cool turnaround in there but the song is out of A. Since it's a rock song the minor pentatonic works well over it. I go through China Grove often. Of course it's in NC not Texas.

 

[stevesz]

"Technically" La Grange is played in the A Minor Pentatonic scale, or the "blues box scale." C is natural rather than sharp in the A Minor Pentatonic, and there's not an F or F# in sight cos it's only a 5 note scale. Then, as Charlesinator points out, it modulates up to a C Minor Pentatonic for the extended solo and slides back to A for the end.

Here's a good tool.
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php

"Ah how how how!"

 

[guitarbiker]

The C chord section is plain and simple unprepared modulation. I'm a college boy.

 

[quickIV]

A Minor?

I just always thought the song would be in Amin, not Amaj. As others have pointed out, the pentatonic scale edits tones of the natural minor scale, so its not gonna sound sad, but bluesy. And since the A, C, D progression is played using power chords (A5, C5, D5) there is no third to make the use of those color tones necessary.

Try this, though, play a progression using power chords in the key of Gmaj (G5, C5, D5). You can try to make the progression sound "bluesy" by altering the rhythm, but it wont have the heavier, darker feel of La Grange. The reason being, with the power chords the third is edited out. Pretty much no matter how hard you try, the song will have a "Major" sound. Now try a chord progression using power chords where you chose a chord derived from the minor scale (ex:G5, Bb5, C5). Now, using the G Minor pentatonic and Blues scale will give the sound a heavier, darker and bluesier edge.

I hope this helps!

 

[crowden]

Here is a common repeating blues/rock shuffle riff preformed over an A chord:

     A5  A5  A6  A5  A7  A5  A6
x E|---------------------------------|
x B|---------------------------------|
x G|---------------------------------|
- D|-2---2---4---2---5---2---4-------|
o A|---------------------------------|
o E|---------------------------------|

Now look at this:

     A   A   B   A   C   A   C
x E|---------------------------------|
- B|-2---2---4---2---5---2---4-------|
- G|-2---2---4---2---5---2---4-------|
- D|-2---2---4---2---5---2---4-------|
x A|---------------------------------|
x E|---------------------------------|

If you have a bass line that works under the first example, the second example will work over it as well.

Do you see why?

In rock, the bIII chord is often used as a substitute for the I7 chord - thou its voicing lends it to be less of a dominating sound.

Likewise (but less common), the II chord can be substituted for the I6 chord however it's 3rd has problems with the a minor pentatonic scale for I. So it's mostly used with major pentatonic scale and carefully used with the minor pentatonic scale.

 

[brokenjoe]

Theory question I've always had about the ZZ Top song La Grange. The song uses the John Lee Hooker chord progression in the key of A, A to C to D. If A is the one and D is the four, how does the C fit in? Should it not be a Cm? The song works though as is, just curious from a theory angle.

Think of it this way:

None of the chords are really full chords. If you start accenting those thirds, the chord riff really changes flavour. Think of the chords as A5, C5, and D5. (If chords at all)

I've always considered the 'C' part -that you solo over as just a modulation to the minor third, as relative to the initial key -A

 

[Califiddler]

Is "C5" shorthand for "C no 3rd"? It doesn't really make sense, since the 5 is already in the C chord. But I guess it's shorter than writing "C no 3rd" all the time.

 

[stevieboy]

Is "C5" shorthand for "C no 3rd"? It doesn't really make sense, since the 5 is already in the C chord. But I guess it's shorter than writing "C no 3rd" all the time.

Yes.

As far as the OP's question, blues is a form that takes elements from one culture and stuffs them into the conventions, traditions, and instruments of a completely different one. Theory is interesting but I wouldn't get too caught up in how it applies to blues.

 

[garymaddox]

I'm not sure I follow you Doug. The song is essentially the Hooker riff out of a it modulates up to C for the solo then back to A for the last verse and outro. There is a cool turnaround in there but the song is out of A. Since it's a rock song the minor pentatonic works well over it. I go through China Grove often. Of course it's in NC not Texas.

I think RodeoTex is correct on the location of the Doobie Brother's song. I think there's a China Grove on Louisiana too. The Doob's are singing about Texas though.

 

[brokenjoe]

Is "C5" shorthand for "C no 3rd"? It doesn't really make sense, since the 5 is already in the C chord. But I guess it's shorter than writing "C no 3rd" all the time.

Yup. Technically not chords. Just stack root and fifths together.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

I think RodeoTex is correct on the location of the Doobie Brother's song. I think there's a China Grove on Louisiana too. The Doob's are singing about Texas though.

After all..

When the sun comes up
on a sleepy little town
down around San Antone

The Alamo and all that, right?

 

[BigDaddyLH]

Yup. Technically not chords. Just stack root and fifths together.

If only a Theory Guy could tell us if a root + a fifth makes a chord

 

[klasaine]

I say dyad (diad).

 

[BigDaddyLH]

I say dyad (diad).

Dyad:

In music, a dyad is a set of two notes or pitches.[1] Although most chords have three or more notes, in certain contexts a dyad may be considered to be a chord.

So it's a chord, maybe