The secret punch on TV and in movies

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by verb boten, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. Solrac Kai

    Solrac Kai Tele-Holic

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  2. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    You are right that the movements are based on combat techniques. IMO, the only Martial Arts that are specifically tailored to real world fighting are: Jiu Jitsu (and it's sport form, Judo), Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Arnis, Escrima, Kali, Kenjutsu, Kendo, legit wrestling, Savate, Fencing, and medieval Man-at Arms knightly combat. All other Asian arts are stylized versions of fighting. The techniques have been geometrically choreographed to achieve mathematical harmony and symmetric, visually pleasing movement. If you want to adapt these arts to real combat, they have to be reorganized for effectiveness and efficiency.

    So, sure, the techniques of Asian Martial Arts are BASED on fighting, offense and defense. But they've been turned into traditional cultural art forms that "resemble" fighting, like Native American hunting dance or war dance resembles tracking animals or preparing for war, with movements taken from the hunt and the fight. Still, these movements have been choreographed, so ... not really effective until applied to reality.
     
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  3. Solrac Kai

    Solrac Kai Tele-Holic

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    Let's be clear on why I am saying Akido is worthless as a Martial Art and for self defense. But first if you trained in Aikido then you must know what I mean when I say Uke-Nage, right? For those reading that dont it literally translates into the receiver and the thrower. They work together as partners to perform the moves. This is core to Akido training, fundamental to it's philosophy, and also the reason why it doesn't work in real fight situations. It doesn't work simply because it is never practiced against someone who is actively resisting the person they are against.

    If anyone has ever actually trained in any jujitsu, boxing, wrestling, or any Martial Art that incorporates sparring against an opponent that is resisting you will understand what I mean.
    You start to learn a move, you practice that move with your partner (this is similar to the mind set of the uke-nage) you go back and forth so you build muscle memory, you train the move slowly and methodically, you spend 45 min of the class learning the move, maybe you also learn a variation of the move. Look above at your descriptions on how tobreak a knee, finger, headbutt, you practice any one of those step by step with your partner. Then the last 15 min of class you spar, or go live like we say at my dojo.

    Break knee: grab opponent's striking hand,(how? Which hand are they striking with, what if it's a feint and now you are off balance because you over reached for that hand. What if he twist it out your grip immediately? Do you grab the actual hand or are you really trying to grab the wrist? What do you do if he grabs your hand too?Do you grab the hand/wrist using the same grip as you would hold a baseball bat? Or do you use a different kind of grip? And that's just the first step of what you have written...perform downward wrist lock while stepping back, then rotate opponent arm toward center of body and rest dominant foot on opponent extended knee, step down on knee while leaning forward releasing some tension on opponent arm. Hard to describe, easy to learn. Knee may break, may separate, may just sprain

    Sparing against an actively resisting opponent provides those answers and teaches you how to respond so you can finish your technique by learning to adjust, but Akido never allows you to learn this way.

    Back to my example, that is already obvious to those that do sparring, you go live and you find out that applying the technique doesn't work like you were taught, and you are bewildered, your partner isn't having much luck since he is learning the new move with you. You keep going and you start learning that if I move just a little this way when he grabs me like this, I can almost catch the move. Maybe you don't do it that day, but you keep training and you learn what it feels like when someone shifts their weight a certain way, or you begin to gauge distances better and find where you can be in position to hit someone and not get hit in return. This is why sparring is so important, and why Aikido will never work in a real fight because Akido never does live sparring.

    I can tell by what you have written in this thread you have never sparred or actually fought someone using Aikido. And by the way that interesting video you post further down is only interesting in the fact that you couldn't find a video of an Aikido person knocking someone out
     
  4. Milspec

    Milspec Friend of Leo's

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    I know it isn't true in the real form of it, but you have to admit that much of the training is based on movements / counters which are expected. Not a lot of training in the dojo is done with broken bottles and brass knuckles, let alone soap covered floor. The line is actually the quote used in the tv scene right after where it was cut off which I always loved.
     
  5. Milspec

    Milspec Friend of Leo's

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    The Marine Corps created a martial arts program about 20 years ago where they used Grand Masters of several disciplines to design a "real world" form that could be used in combat. I knew one of the designers and he was the only American in the Okinawa Karate Hall of Fame. He was good enough that octagon fighters like Ken Shamrock used to fly into Hawaii for his advice. Anyway, he told me that he and the other designers used to go to dive bars and pick fights to test out what really works consistently in a real world engagement. They compared notes and designed the program.

    I trained with this guy in Hawaii to achieve my first 2 belts and he was a beast! His method was pretty much "Come at me" and then cripple me in the process. We would repeat that over and over until I could understand why my attacks failed....then we switched places. I have no formal martial arts training outside of the Marine Corps program, but I will take my instructor's word for it when he told me that about half of what is taught in traditional martial arts is not that valuable on the street, more line training to achieve understanding of movements.

    It is like the knife defense taught when I worked for the State Prison, there were 6 forms of attacks and 6 forms of defenses to those attacks. We did repetitive line training for hours until we became good at blocking, but if somebody in a real knife fight made their attack in something other than those 6 common approaches....you are going to bleed. I think a lot of dojo training consists of such approaches as well. At least until the higher belts. It isn't an attack against anyone that trains at one, just an observation.
     
  6. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    I didn't post a video. You are not listening, so I'll clarify once more briefly, then I'll drop it ... for this reason: you are sort of rude, and since nothing I say is likely to change that, I'll leave you to feel better about yourself as a needlessly disrespectful character.

    Formal Aikido is a traditional Art form. It's one of the styles that is practiced emulating a fighting skill. By the way, if your mouth ever gets you on the wrong end of a knife or a billlie club, Aikido techniques are among the best techniques to disarm an armed opponent.
    Sorry your friend gave up his style because he got his butt kicked, but he should never have entered fighting competition without extensive experience fighting. His change of heart is just evidence he prepared poorly and had no fighting spirit.

    There are aikidoka who spar and train competitively, Shodokan style, but further, there are senseis who adapt Aikido for real fighting purposes. These adaptations are required for most Asian Martial Arts, since most of them aren't sufficiently geared toward real fighting. So, if Aikido appeals to a prospective Martial Arts student as an Art form, and he/she wants to train to be a fighter, he/she would be wise to expose him/herself to a variety of styles, since successful fighters nearly always draw from several styles. When a student has enough experience, there no reason to not adapt the throws, feints, and other techniques of Aikido to a well rounded combination of styles, so that the practitioner can counter grappling with strikes and kicks, and counter "boxing" (Western or Chinese) with holds and locks.
    If you claim to think I have ever said formal Aikido training prepares a student to fight on the street or in a ring, I haven't. I have said that many of the techniques of Aikido translate well into real life fighting, but such training must be conducted by a sensei with the qualifications to adapt formal techniques to actual fighting. I can see you disagree with that ... that's a reasonable opinion. I think you're wrong about that, but it's a debatable point of view.
     
  7. kbold

    kbold Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    I would add: Wing Chun. Probably the closest of the martial arts to street fighting.
    Rather messy to watch but very effective, especially in close quarters.
     
  8. kbold

    kbold Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Yes, this so for many of the martial arts.

    I broke a bone in my hand because my partner deviated from the structure.
    I cracked a few ribs because I deviated.
    A partner was repeatedly applying excessive force to my shoulder joint - to make it more realistic.

    In all these cases, I had to stop training, i.e not learning or improving.
    The repetitive injury to my shoulder put an end to training. Took a long time for my shoulder to recover.

    My son was doing some Sumo-like wrestling on the last training before summer holidays (this was for some variety - outside the training construct). I heard the crack as his leg broke - he spent the whole holidays with a leg in plaster.

    Learning patterns to a formula, and with a compliant partner, may not be realistic, but it is forming brain - muscle memory, which may give you an advantage in a real fight, if the opportunity presents itself. It also allows you to learn a dangerous sport in relative safety.
    A good instructor should know when you are ready to take your training to the next level (i.e. applying it into realistic situations). It may be irresponsible for an instructor to integrate realistic training too early.
    "No Johnny, the purpose of that finger strike is to permanently blind Mary .... And Mary that strike should be aimed at Johnny's throat, not his chest. Its designed to kill him. Now, try it again, properly".
    Johnny and Marys parents, watching on, are starting to feel a bit uneasy.
     
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  9. LutherBurger

    LutherBurger Friend of Leo's

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    I'd guess that the only professional boxer in that ring is the old man. Watch it again -- he moves like Tyson.

    The young guy probably walked into the gym off the street, talking trash. He has no idea what he's doing.
     
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  10. LutherBurger

    LutherBurger Friend of Leo's

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    I'm unfamiliar with most of those, but I'd remove Muay Thai from your list. It is most definitely a sport, specifically tailored away from "real world fighting". Sure, its roots are in battlefield hand-to-hand combat, but its rules specifically prohibit judo and wrestling techniques (not to mention actual military H2H techniques) which would be very, very helpful in "real world" scenarios. Also, its training is solely focused on winning 5-round fights against evenly-matched opponents, not self-defense or combat.

    But I'm not saying that Thai boxers can't win real fights, of course. That would be stupid.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  11. Solrac Kai

    Solrac Kai Tele-Holic

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  12. ftbtx

    ftbtx Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    This is true, power comes from the ground up and the torsion of the body. Strong core muscles make for a stronger punch that arm muscles any day.
     
  13. ftbtx

    ftbtx Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    I thought it was teen spirit...
     
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  14. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's

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    I saw a security video from a bar between two college boys with "the secret punch". It was the beginning of the school year, both young guys, both the former B.M.O.C. from their respective high schools and both drinking. Words were said in drunken stupidity and one of the young men lands a punch on the jaw of the other. A quick and sharp jab. The recipient falls back cold and flat to the floor. The sender leaves. Over and done with in a second. The video was useful to I.D. the young man who is now doing 15 years for killing the other. It could have been longer if they young man hadn't cooperate with our investigation. Some things are better kept a secret.
     
  15. Flakey

    Flakey Friend of Leo's

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    Not exactly true. Many of the take down holds I used when I use to push a squad car around come from these forms of martial arts. They require speed and constant practice. The idea is to take control of the individual before it becomes a boxing match. So, yes, you can take control of a person that is resisting. I've done it many times. It's about apply the right form of force, at needed amount, and at the appropriate time to end the confrontation.
     
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  16. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Fair enough, depending on the sifu and how he/she conducts the drills that pass for most of the sparring work.
     
  17. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    I agree, but the training is brutal. One of my best friends was a successful Muay Thay kickboxer and he came from a boxing background. He was a little guy, but the most dangerous under 150 lb fighter I ever actually trained/ sparred with. Well, maybe after the Pillipino friend who was one of Zenko Suzuki's bodyguards, maybe the only non-nipponese one at the time.

    Anyway, all the techniques in Muay Thai are combat worthy ... they do adhere to rules, just like Brazil-Jitsu, but there aren't many more damaging kicks than the ones that render your leg useless. Your point is well taken.
     
  18. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    A way we trained with knives was to take a very flexible rubber knife and put red food coloring all over the blade. When you see all the red stains on your arms and torso, you realize just how fast you'd have been cut. It's not an absolutely accurate analog, but it gets your attention.
     
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  19. verb boten

    verb boten Tele-Meister

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    Whatever it is, it's a thread morph in progress: from the unrealistic fights of hollywood to the most impressive martial arts, i love it.
     
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  20. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    The most impressive Martial Arts, IMO, are the ones that unify body and mind, harmonize your soul with your physical being. The goal of a formal Martial Art should be to strengthen your Chi, your life force.

    Here's my analogy: you can learn to shoot a gun very well, always hit the bullseye from a great distance. Even though guns were invented as weapons of war, it is a great accomplishment to become an expert shot, albeit as a target shooter, never shooting to kill. Similarly, even though Martial Arts were originally established to use in combat and self-defense, it is a great accomplishment to become skilled in the performance of Martial Arts, though you may never engage in violence.
     
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