The purpose of overdrive/disortion pedals...

[soulgeezer]

In another thread, someone made the comment (which I've read quite a few times before, from many different people) that he didn't like amp distortion, but rather preferred to play his amp dead clean and get his dirt from pedals.

Now, to me, the reason to use a dirt pedal is to get the sound of an overdriven/distorting amp. Or, to goose an already overdriven amp into distortion. But, it appears that some people believe pedals are superior to the sounds produced organically by their amps. This confuses me.

If an overdrive pedal is supposed to sound like an overdriven tube amp, then wouldn't an actual overdriven tube amp, by definition, be superior to a pedal that's attempting to emulate it?

Or, have pedals come so far, that we've improved upon what a high-quality tube amp can do, thereby rendering the amp obsolete?

Like I said, I'm confused by the folks who say they prefer the sound of a pedal, which is emulating an overdriven amp, to the sound of their amps' natural overdrive or distortion (assuming, of course, that they are using a good, high quality amp to begin with). If you're one of these people, please, explain it to me!

Minor clarification: I am specifically talking about overdrive and distortion pedals that are meant to emulate an amp being pushed, *not* pedals that are meant to push a tube amp organically into overdrive or distortion. In other words, pedals that are meant to provide the dirt, not help the amp to make its own.

 

[malonius]

It depends on the set-up.

I regularly configure my rig to be clean with pedals producing the overdrive. That is to say, the amp is already a tube amp and the pedals interact with the tube amp - which I set to be JUST on the verge of break-up with my guitar volume on 10.

That way I can clean it up with the volume pot. Not every OD pedal suits this set-up.

One advantage of this is being able to balance out the volume of clean versus overdrive tones, which allows a more consistent signal for the PA. I know you can do that with a 2 channel amp, but if you have a single channel amp, it is more difficult.

Also I have 3 overdrive pedals on my board which all give a slightly different tone - more versatility that a single overdrive tone from the amp.

I also sometimes set up with an amp providing the overdrive, but I find I have more control when I set up as previously described.

 

[artdecade]

I guess it depends on circumstances. I use Vox amps. I love them clean - I LOVE them overdriven. When I am playing around the house, I can crank the daylights out of them and get away with it. At some gigs, I can't get that tone because the volume levels might be too much for the venue. In those cases, I use a Nocturne Brain to goose the amp at lower volume levels.

I am guessing that a lot of players like to have versatility on a budget as well. As noted, I use Vox amps. I guess there are times when I might need a Marshall, Dumble, or Mesa type OD for a project (or something of the like). In those cases, I might seek out a pedal to do the job rather than investing hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on amps that I won't use all that much. If I was running a studio, that would be another matter because I should probably have a crap ton of amps. But honestly, most players aren't on a budget where they can buy amps rather than pedals.

But at the end of the day, it is the amp drive that most people are looking to get. Most pedals are simply trying to emulate that sound. Only a few companies out there (Source Audio, I'm looking at you) are trying to come up with new distorted tones that don't have anything to do with tubes being driven away.

 

[jjkrause84]

Some people might love the clean of their amp, but be less enamored with the OD sound. Others may not be able to get a satisfactory clean sound by rolling back the volume pot and prefer to use an OD for dirt (for tone and convenience).

Loads of reasons why peopel might prefer boxes' to amps' OD characteristics.

 

[artdecade]

^ To piggyback on that, David Gilmour used the loudest, cleanest amps available and got his lead tones from a Big Muff. Kinda odd when you think about buying an uber-expensive amp like a Hiwatt to muddy up with a cheap EHX pedal, but can you argue with the results? The tone on Comfortably Numb is pretty damn awesome.

It works for Gilmour, but I don't think it would work for me.

 

[Progbusters]

the pedal makes Amp A sound like an overdriven Amp B

the pedal makes Amp A sound like an overdriven Amp A at lower volume

the pedal makes Amp A get more overdriven than it can get normally

 

[soulgeezer]

We're going a little toward left field here...

As I said in the OP, my question is about people who have high quality tube amps, which are likely the very amps that the pedals are designed to emulate, but for some reason these players prefer to use pedals, rather than their amps, to provide the overdrive.

I'm as guilty as the next guy, by the way -- I own and use a Rivera Suprema 55, but I keep a Maxon ROD881 overdrive/distortion in front of it because I like the way it tightens up the dirty sound of the amp. But, I don't use the pedal *instead* of the amp's distortion; I use it to shape the amp's distortion.

What I'm talking about here is people who choose to use a pedal loaded with transistors, rather than an actual tube, to get their overdrive and distortion. Aren't tubes supposed to be the be all and end all? How is it some folks have come to prefer solid state, but only if it sounds like a tube, even when there are actual tubes available?

See why I'm confused? I can't make my question make sense!

 

[sax4blues]

Most amps have a signature overdrive tone. I may want a variety of overdrive tones and can't afford to have multiple amps. Also it will be cumbersome to take multiple amps to playing situations. So pedals are a cost effective and convenient solution.

I know many players who don't use pedals for overdrive. They are all hard rock players who basically plug straight into a cranked amp and have their "tone" for all their music.

 

[JoeNeri]

We're going a little toward left field here...

As I said in the OP, my question is about people who have high quality tube amps, which are likely the very amps that the pedals are designed to emulate, but for some reason these players prefer to use pedals, rather than their amps, to provide the overdrive.

My main amp is a '70 Bassman head - 45 watts of whoopass. It has enormous clean headroom. In order to push it naturally into distortion, I have to play too loud for anyone to care how great it sounds. And believe me, on those rare occasions where I could crank it above 7, it was tonal heaven. But you know you're playing too loud when even your bass player tells you to turn it down!

So...I mostly use a Blues Driver to push the amp at lower volumes.

 

[11 Gauge]

Most amps have a signature overdrive tone.

And while that is cool (I have such a few beasts that I love to pieces), it's not extremely flexible unless that is your core sound, and the overdrive happens at a meaningful volume.

Folks will argue til the end of time that a box on the floor will never sound "as good" as a distorting tube amp. That is really an argument that can't be won, one way or the other.

I will say that unless you are sitting in your bedroom and A/B'ing an amp versus a good OD pedal sound, you can probably get the two to where they are indistinguishable in a live context. To me, that is the crux of it. If someone wants to go crazy in the privacy of their own home getting the best overdriven tones known to humankind, all good and fine. I also know that some folks can be really picky in the studio, so more power to 'em there as well.

But I think we've kind of put ourselves in a cage regarding this whole tube amp overdrive thing, because whether it is distortion from a tube or any other device is largely irrelevant, as long as the circuit is properly designed.

The only advantage to really having the distortion occur in the amp is that it can be "modulated" by a power section that is fighting to keep from drooping, but that only happens with lower powered "vintage style" amps. And it was mentioned that there are plenty of amps in the 40+ watt bracket that are not gonna give it up until your eardrums are bleeding.

I will also argue that it is possible to get shades and colorations of drive that are more flexible and "better targeted" than what is hardwired into almost any amp. As good as preamp tubes are, they just aren't as flexible that way, and the parts count goes up exponentially to get the same thing.

It is also possible to get a stompbox which has more harmonic content, different harmonic content, is a little on the fuzzy side, is tight, is loose, is bright, etc...

The problem is that we like to segregate things into nice and tidy little categories, and it kind of shackles you down if you insist on taking that approach. Even a high output pickup can be deemed an overdrive or booster if you think about it, because it is capable of the same thing.

But it is all just means to an end. If someone likes drive box tones into a clean amp, that's their answer. If someone likes a dirty amp with a little more of a nudge or harmonic assist in front, that's kosher too. and obviously, some guys want a tube equivalent of a Metal Zone tucked inside their amps - a really hard clipping preamp with what is almost always a pristine clean power section. It would sound like crap if it was anything else.

 

[Leep Dog]

For me it's a trade off for tone vs. volume as well as an issue of tonal variety. For the tones vs. volume issue, I definitely think that my AC15 sounds its best when I turn it up and use its own sound. However, it's really loud and not practical all the time. I can get closer to that sound by using a pedal.

For my second point, it's easier to get different shades of overdrive with pedals. That way I can make my Vox sound more like something else and not be limited to using the Vox's sound.

 

[JesterR]

I just can not afford as much amps as OD tones I like. And definitely can not carry them all on rehearsal and gigs. So, my pedals sounds good enough. I can buy a 150-200 dollar stompbox, which little, portable, and I always can change it to another. That's why I use RE-20 and El Cap instead of real tape machine. I do not have a roadie and tour bus

Also I should mention, that if we talk about new amps with many channels and total preamp distortion, my pedals sounds better, more open and dynamic.

 

[malonius]

There appears to be a lot of Vox owners here who:

a) Like the Vox both clean and overdriven
b) still use pedals to shape their overdrive tones.

This to me is indicative of how well Vox amps take pedals.

To answer the OP: I have tried a tube based pedal with my tube amps and they don't work as well as my transistor-based overdrives do with the same amp. It's all about controlling the amp at a reasonable, workable volume. A lot of amps need to be cooking to get seriously good tone from them, especially those with a lot of clean headroom such as Fender amps and HiWatts. Marshalls and some other similar amps seem to saturate earlier. Which is why, for example, they are not so popular with country guitar players, and also why the Fender amps don't get seen much in classic rock bands. (Apologies if I'm stating the obvious here...)

The amp needs to suit the style of music as well as the player (perhaps).

It may also be why we are seeing a number of amp manufacturers producing lower powered units, or units with power scaling to get that pure amp overdrive tone, e.g. Blackstar (1 Watt & 5 Watt), Marshall 1Watt, Mesa Boogie Mark V - with power scaling, Suhr Badger amps etc.

A lot of these amps need to be set correctly before you find the tone you require, which means they would be good for recording and studio work. Time to dial in the sweet spot is fine, but not what is needed live, especially if you need to switch from clean to overdrive, say with the click of a footswitch. The Mesa Mark V might do this but it costs a fortune. Most other amps take time to alter settings to adjust power scaling etc.

Hence a lot of players simply use pedals to balance their sound. Different overdrives give different tones on the same given amp. Therefore a lot can be achieved by spending relatively little on pedals to change your sound. It certainly would be a lot cheaper and easier to transport than the alternative of buying 3 tube amps and switching between them.

Both set-ups can sound great. They can also sound poor, but that's a separate debate.

 

[smoss469]

My experience says the more dirt you run, the less likely you are to play originals. You need the dirt to emulate a lot of other artists sounds for their songs. Most people with originals don't have a 1/2 dozen dirt pedals. Usually you see 1 or 2. Occasionally you'll see 3 but it's usually a mix of distortion, overdrive and fuzz.

 

[gtrguru]

My neighbor complains when my Blues Jr. is at 6. If I cranked it all the way I would be visited by the authorities. I can set my amp at 4, add some dirt, and enjoy. I am so thankful for dirt boxes.

 

[Teiscoman]

De gustibus non est disputandum.

 

[IdahoPicker]

A super clean tube amp combined with many flavors of OD/distortion pedals, makes for a very versatile rig.

 

[Justinvs]

We're going a little toward left field here...

As I said in the OP, my question is about people who have high quality tube amps, which are likely the very amps that the pedals are designed to emulate, but for some reason these players prefer to use pedals, rather than their amps, to provide the overdrive.


See why I'm confused? I can't make my question make sense!

So much depends on which tube amp you own. I usually play through a Blackface Super Reverb, which by most accounts is a good tube amp. It sounds great at practically any volume, but it isn't an amp that gives up a lot of distortion. If i want it to sound like a cranked Marshall, which I very often do, the only way to get that sound is with a pedal. No matter how loud I run the Fender, it will never sound like a Marshall (and vice versa, obviously)

So, yeah, basically to get the sound I want from my amp I have to have a pedal. It's as simple as that.

Justin

 

[telerocker1988]

A super clean tube amp combined with many flavors of OD/distortion pedals, makes for a very versatile rig.

Bingo.

It isn't that I hate amp distortion for it's sound or tone or the sound of tubes, it's that I hate how limited it is and the lack of versatility and the range.... I obviously love tube amp distortion in general, most of my favorite classic rock recordings were with cranked Fenders or Marshalls in the studio. My gripe is how limited they are for covering a wide variety of music not just genres but tones and different bands and classic tones. Amps are becoming more versatile, and also more confusing I might add with multi channels and whatnot. And I prefer not to use multi channel amps or a multi amp setup. For instance, A Super Reverb can't sound like a Tweed Deluxe, Plexi, JCM800, Dual Rec, and Twin Reverb by itself. And by using pedals, you can cover more ground. With a nice clean platform and a "pedal friendly" amp, you can cover lots more ground than you could with one, perhaps two amplifier(s).

OD/Dist pedals have came a long way. They've actually become IMO a viable solution for a 'problem' like this and is a great way to go for a guy who loves single channel vintage amps (I'm old school in guitars/amps) but needs his amp to cover a lot of territory that it cannot do alone. Now in the early days of distortion/overdrives I would say the sound would not be that great and couldn't hold it's own against tube amp distortion. These days with the advances in pedals I find they can do so quite well. I consider this time to be the golden era of pedals, and in particular dirt pedals. There are tons of guys, for instance, Brian Wampler, who meticulously recreates a signature amps tone but also feel and can get the responsiveness and the feel of a classic amp in a pedal. I don't know how he does it but he does it well. Catalinbread is another company doing great at the "amp emulation/amp in a box pedal". To the point if you put one of those pedals through a great clean tube amp and put the cranked version side by side, the difference would be minimal and certainly onstage.

Then you have your generic overdrives used for pushing a clean amp into it's own distortion, such as the infamous Tubescreamer, or even other circuits like the Red Llama or things like that, which will cause a low-med amount of gain with a clean amp, or you can goose an already dirty amp. Then you have distortion pedals, where I'd say 75 percent or more of the gain is coming from the box, in which you have more diode based distortion. But even in this area, they are sounding better than ever and guys like Wampler are making great distortions as well that will give you a classic amp distortion in front of, say, a clean Fenderesque tube amp. Then you have fuzz, where all of the distortion is from the pedal and it's balls-to-the-walls gain and you are truly in transistor land. I'm not as 'hot' on fuzzboxes but they have their place. I find I'd personally rather stack distortions/overdrives for a more saturated sound than have the broken speaker or ratty type of sound. I use both distortions and overdrives, as well as lots of boost pedals which simply just make you louder and push the preamp a bit.

There are tons of great pedals out there now for gain, be it mass produced or boutique. Some of my favorite companies are guys like Dunlop/MXR/Way Huge with Jeorge Tripps designing great pedals. Their Custom Badass MXR line is great, and I absolutely love the Way Huge reissues (Green Rhino and Red Llama). I also am a fan of some BOSS pedals. Pedals that can be modded to be boutique-level quality. I love the BD-2, SD-2, OD-3, etc. For boutique I love Wampler, Keeley, Analogman, Catalinbread, Fulltone (even though they are more available now), etc. I use those guys' pedals and I love what they offer for gain boxes.

So basically, the modern dirtboxes are quite good and can hold their own against amp distortion IMO, and especially if you want your single channel vintage amp (in my case, a '68 Super Reverb) to sound like 10 different amps or drive flavors, pedals are a great option and a valid one at that. Dirtboxes are in a different place than they were 10 years ago, even 5 years ago... It's almost scary how good some of these pedals are sounding. When the technology was new, I wouldn't say that and I myself would likely be running at least a 4 amp setup or a a couple multi channel amps to get my variety but pedals are much more compact and you can get a plethora of tones from them to help the guy who needs to be as versatile as possible or just wants to have options other than same ol' same ol', which is my gripe with tube amp distortion for a live scenario. If I was doing original stuff and recording in the studio, you'd bet I'd be cranking amps. But for live, I prefer pedals.

 

[Green Lantern]

I find tube distortion inconvenient with the setups I use. Like Justinvs, I use single channel amps that are often considered to be very clean (one is a Super Reverb, coincidentally). I like them because they can stay clean at loud volumes. It's not just that, though. I'm an absolute nut and connoisseur of clean tone. I love beautiful, clean electric guitar tone. I need for some of my amps to be clean at loud volumes and sound really good while doing it.

Call me ghetto, but sometimes myself and people I play with do not have the luxury of a PA system. Sometimes we have rehearsals with drums that I need to keep up with and I'd like for my clean tones to be able to do that. Because of these reasons, I often use amps based on their clean tone and their power. I'm not interested in overdriving them.

HOWEVER!
That is not to say that I dislike overdrive tones. Not at all. I like the flexibility that drive pedals offer. With them, I can obtain overdrive at any volume I desire. I can try different overdrive flavors at any time and experiment with stacking them and so forth. I also sometimes use very high gain stuff. My amps wouldn't be able to get there on their own. I'd need an ENGL or a Diezel amp, or something like that (which I'd love, but...). I don't care if the pedals are emulating something or not. The ones I like sound awesome to me and they suit my purposes.