wildschwein
Friend of Leo's
Peavey Renown for the win.
The Peavey Special 130 is crap!
- Thread starter Timmytwang
- Start date
Teleman
Tele-Meister
The band I was in years ago opened A show for Keith urban on his first US tour with his band the ranch back in the 90s. Keith was playing through a pair of Peavey special 130’s. He sounded great that night. Even though now he can afford to play through Dumbles he still sound the same as he did that night playing through PEaveys.
Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
There's a fair amount of evidence that transient response is faster in SS amps v tube. Scotty Anderson is a very quick player who plays clean and tends to use SS amps. He's also known for playing lightning quick double stop lines and SS amps reproduce those harmonies more precisely than tube amps. Brent Mason uses a Bassman but has had it modified. I'd like to know what he's had done. Apparently the mods have been performed by Kye Kennedy who knows how the Nashville guys want their amps to behave.
I remember around 1990, being romanced by a brandy new Vibroverb RI.
The notes jumped out of it in a way that shocked me, and I didn't understand why.
After awhile, I plugged in my tweed Deluxe and realized it had something I was missing.
I didn't know what sag was, but I knew one amp had it and the other didn't.
They were awesome daisy-chained.
The notes jumped out of it in a way that shocked me, and I didn't understand why.
After awhile, I plugged in my tweed Deluxe and realized it had something I was missing.
I didn't know what sag was, but I knew one amp had it and the other didn't.
They were awesome daisy-chained.
codamedia
Poster Extraordinaire
I bought my last Special 130 for about $100 CAD. It must be "crap" because the Bandit 65 (same era) goes for twice that.
codamedia
Poster Extraordinaire
Brent's famous era of recording was a BF Twin, BF Deluxe and a Matchless. Any mods to any amp he used/uses is irrelevant... those amps are capable of everything you hear in those recordings. He played the Special 130 on a lot of TV sets... American Music Shop, Ralph Emery, etc... because Peavey endorsed those shows.
I do see a lot of "club style" footage of Scotty and Redd using those old Peaveys all the time. Those aren't endorsed/sponsored.
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Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
I have had AB763 Twins and a couple of Deluxes. I've also had a number of SS amps that had faster transient responses. There's a reason Redd calls them 'fast'.
Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
Here's some interesting thoughts from the maker of Grammatico amps who worked with Redd to develop a tube amp that would behave like a SS amp: "The circuit design is uniquely developed to meet Redd's demanding requirements. The goal was to make an amp that doesn't have the typical sag and compression of a tube amp and could be hit really hard without caving. It had to be fat and punchy but not mushy. It had to be fast and tight but not brittle and had to be clear but not too trebly."
I'm sure that transient response is generally faster in SS amps. The question is, how slow is slow
The response of a tube amp can be made "faster" using solid state rectification and better filtering of the power supply.
The more power an amp has to deliver, the more it will sag if the power supply is not up to the task.
Running something like a DR or Twin clean does not put a huge demand on the power supply.
Yngwie Malmsteen is an example of someone who plays blazing fast and very articulate stuff through dimed Marshall amps and they seem to deliver what he needs. Those amps are basically Bassmans with beefed-up power supplies and solid state rectification.
11 Gauge
Doctor of Teleocity
Something that's possibly getting overlooked is that many SS power amps typically have considerably more damping than tube amps do*, and this probably is as important as having a stiff power supply with lots of reserves.
It's really been kind of a more recent thing to lower the damping to be like a tube power amp with stuff like the Peavey Transtube amps, and most of the new Quilter amps.
*Because of the need for an output transformer, many tube power amps typically have a fairly high-Z out, which results in low damping. And low damping is what gives you all of those nonlinearities between the OT and the speaker.
It's really been kind of a more recent thing to lower the damping to be like a tube power amp with stuff like the Peavey Transtube amps, and most of the new Quilter amps.
*Because of the need for an output transformer, many tube power amps typically have a fairly high-Z out, which results in low damping. And low damping is what gives you all of those nonlinearities between the OT and the speaker.
bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
It's not really about how fast someone is playing, it's about the kind of attack and response they want. Playing fast might exacerbate the perception of a soft, slow attack, but fast transients aren't needed to play fast.
Yngwie's style depends on the compression and mush of distortion, which is the opposite of a big clean peavey ss amp. He'd probably sound fine on a dimed tweed deluxe. Yngwie's style, and really any 80s rock shredding, is very legato. If they tried that stuff through a special 130 without distortion it would sound like crap.
Fast country picking can be very staccato, where each note pops even when the playing is very fast. It takes a lot of skill to play fast notes evenly enough to make them sound good through a special 130.
A lot of people probably prefer tube to hide behind a little squish. I know I don't practice as much as Brent Mason.
Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
Yep, but Yngwie tends to play with lots of saturation. You can't really compare his sound and style to a Scotty Anderson or Redd Volkaert where clean punch is the staple all night.I'm sure that transient response is generally faster in SS amps. The question is, how slow is slow
The response of a tube amp can be made "faster" using solid state rectification and better filtering of the power supply.
The more power an amp has to deliver, the more it will sag if the power supply is not up to the task.
Running something like a DR or Twin clean does not put a huge demand on the power supply.
Yngwie Malmsteen is an example of someone who plays blazing fast and very articulate stuff through dimed Marshall amps and they seem to deliver what he needs. Those amps are basically Bassmans with beefed-up power supplies and solid state rectification.
Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
Great description and characterisation of the fast county pickin' sound. It's really quite distinct in the guitar player world and not the sound that most players are looking for.
11 Gauge
Doctor of Teleocity
I'm sure that transient response is generally faster in SS amps. The question is, how slow is slow
The response of a tube amp can be made "faster" using solid state rectification and better filtering of the power supply.
The more power an amp has to deliver, the more it will sag if the power supply is not up to the task.
Running something like a DR or Twin clean does not put a huge demand on the power supply.
Yngwie Malmsteen is an example of someone who plays blazing fast and very articulate stuff through dimed Marshall amps and they seem to deliver what he needs. Those amps are basically Bassmans with beefed-up power supplies and solid state rectification.
Nothing against Yngwie, but a lot of his note choices fall within restricted choices of scales, so there's 'less risk' of not hearing each note. He's also got a very stacatto method, too.
I'd argue that a better choice of player to illustrate non-coloration at the power amp would be Allan Holdsworth, who had a nearly silent picking technique, with a vastly huge vocabulary of note choices, and a considerably warmer/fatter lead tone than Yngwie's...
...So it's not surprising that Allan used SS amps for a bit of the stuff he recorded over the years. I think Sixteen Men of Tain was cut entirely with Yamaha DG amps of the time. You may not care for his tone, but there's no arguing just how clear each and every note was.
I saw a cool interview with Kenny Vaughn recently telling the story of the time he and Marty invited James Burton onstage at The Old Opry. Kenny and Marty each brought their own special amps and guitars, but Burton shows up empty handed. He had to use a crappy stage amp and borrow a Tele strung up with really light gauge strings. After Kenny and Marty had done their solos, Burton proceeded to blow them both off the stage, both technically and tonally.
Just sayin, sometimes it ain’t the equipment.
Just sayin, sometimes it ain’t the equipment.
Timmytwang
TDPRI Member
Yep, I'm sure it ain't the equipment 99% of the time, but striving for the 1% is what we do. It's a sickness, an art, a way of life, an obsession. Drives my wife mad.
A sagging voltage supply has a recovery time, so it is about playing fast.
I chose Yngwie because his playing actually is about fast AND attack and transients, often picking every note in fast runs. Al DiMeola in the 70's is another, perhaps even better, example.
Distorted, but the opposite of "mush". Both players sound about the same when they play acoustic - minus the distortion
Believe me, those guys would not be able to deliver that stuff on a dimed tweed Deluxe.
bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
A sagging voltage supply has a recovery time, so it is about playing fast.
I chose Yngwie because his playing actually is about fast AND attack and transients, often picking every note in fast runs. Al DiMeola in the 70's is another, perhaps even better, example.
Distorted, but the opposite of "mush". Both players sound about the same when they play acoustic - minus the distortion
Believe me, those guys would not be able to deliver that stuff on a dimed tweed Deluxe.
"Attack" and "mush" are relative terms. Comparing distorted guitar to clean guitar is like comparing piano to organ. Two different instruments.
I learned to play in the 80s and I was a decently fast metal player as a teenager. When my focus moved to roots music I thought I'd just turn off the distortion and transfer my metal chops to country. It was not that easy, and I think it gives me a clear perspective on the difference.
I do not believe for a moment that any of Yngwie's notes would go missing because a tweed deluxe, or any amp, couldn't keep up. He may not like the timbre of it, but that's all this is. These are not race bikes, and playing isn't a sport. It's all just aesthetic and preference.
Fair enough, but IMHO the huge difference in sag/power supply response between a tweed Deluxe and a Plexi is not even open to debate. It is a fact that can be measured and calculated mathematically.
The louder you play, the bigger the effect as the power supply has to deliver more current. That is why most metal amp come with beefy power supplies.
I have a hard time imagining Al DiMeola pulling off "Race With the Devil" through Neil Young's rig.
