The importance of tone...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Axegrinder77, May 16, 2021.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I don’t hear a problem with his touch, player tone source seems fine.
    Sounds like a problem with the amp or possibly the mic got damaged somehow since it was last used.
    Doesn’t sound like mic placement or room either, something is broken in the signal chain.
    Could even the the mic pre?

    I don’t care for his playing but his touch sounds great, and it seems like he was going for more of a classic full hollow Jazz guitar sound, but something in the signal chain screwed up the transients.

    To my ear I’d even guess that if it was the amp or speaker that’s bad, he would have heard it in the room and played a bit different to fix it, so I’d bet on a post amp part of the chain as the location of the problem.
     
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  2. 985plowboy

    985plowboy Friend of Leo's

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    Maybe he really digs that tone.
     
  3. tanplastic

    tanplastic Tele-Afflicted

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    I can see your house from here.
    It could be that I can't hear the problems you're hearing due to local ambient noise here.
    Could you be specific where you're hearing noise, or is it throughout?
     
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  4. Beachbum

    Beachbum Friend of Leo's

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    It doesn't matter which room you play in the tone you had in the last room isn't going to follow you to the next room. Just get used to it.
     
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  5. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Reading up on the "Ox Box", it's a recording tool that "emulates speaker drive, breakup and cone cry".
    Why is the mic even there?
    Maybe the engineer mixed Ox Box and mic sources?
    Maybe the engineer wasn't yet used to the Ox Box sims of speaker breakup?

    Personally I can't stand speaker breakup.
    That whole thing is only useful for simulating old time amps that sounded like they were blowing up, which is not my thing.
    That is not Scofields thing either!
    Recording tech was probably not Sco's focus while playing, so I'm thinking the "tone" issue might be found in what the engineer did.

    Scofield seems to either go for a very electric modern sound, or a simple old time clean woody Jazz sound.
    This sounds like his choices were directed toward the latter.
    Which should have the big transients clear and sort of ringing, not pfft pfft like a bad speaker.
     
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  6. PhoenixBill

    PhoenixBill Tele-Meister

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    I wonder how many people would be telling us how wrong he was…if the video didn’t show the amp and mic placement.

    Then there’s also the sound quality (the lack thereof) of a YouTube video, being played back through tiny little speakers…
     
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  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Pretty much what I'm identifying as "problem sounds" are bigger transients that should be clear and instead sort of blatt/fizz/muffle out.
    Most softer touch sounds seem OK or have no identifiable problems, if one likes that basic sound.

    I would not have used "tone" in the OP, as this is not tone related as much as clarity or transient related, within what I can describe.
    Tone is just EQ, and most of the tones he played were basic typical Jazz guitar tones, except when a pop happens and the tone gets lost in some sort of distortion that is not musical or relevant.
     
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  8. Thin white duke

    Thin white duke Friend of Leo's

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    To be honest i didn't find anything strange with his tone on the video, i'm a huge Scofield fan, it doesn't sound that much different than usual, except that he is not using effects here.
    We should focus on the beauty of his phrases especially on the first song...
     
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  9. BUG80

    BUG80 Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Yes I was wondering the same thing. From demos I've heard the Ox speaker simulation sounds amazing.
     
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  10. fretWalkr

    fretWalkr Tele-Meister

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    I think he's going for a BF edge-of-break up sound like you would get with full band volumes. I do the same.

    Attenuators at bedroom level almost get you there but they change the tone quite a bit. I've got three attenuators and they tend to sound like that, with some odd spikes in the breakup instead of being smooth with a hint of edge. But they will give you a bit of a push you feel with a cranked amp. With an attenuator, I've had the best results with a simple home made LPAD box. But at conversational volumes like this video they still change the tone too much for me.

    I've also tried the hanging SM57. I've seen it alot in live micing but I don't like the treble roll off it gives. I think the micing is probably ok here at least it's not what bothers me.

    Scofield's playing is awesome as always but I agree that I've heard him sound better tone wise.
     
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  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Well assuming the Ox was not sending a speaker sim to the actual speaker, maybe the engineer set up the recording output for some other players touch, or any number of scenarios where player can't hear recording gear change his sound.

    IDK that box though, aside from I would presume that if used for recording, the engineer should be adjusting that recording device for the player, where in the video nobody touches it.

    I just don't think of the transients I heard as any sounds Sco likes to make, or as even any enhancing of his sound.

    The whole idea of a sim that replicates speaker breakup, is technically a degrading of fidelity for the purpose of spicing up the musicality.
    Turn the fidelity degrading knobs too far for the dish, and the flavor is no longer improved.

    There would certainly be classic old time recordings of Jazz guitar, like maybe early circa 1950 Wes when all guitar amps had speakers that broke up on transients if turned up to band levels; that might display something like what I think I heard on this recording.

    Before I googled Ox Box I thought it might be a bad speaker in the Deluxe, or possibly a bad power tube.
    Emphasis on bad!
    Fans of speaker breakup and old time early Tweed tone might like that stuff?
     
  12. Glen W

    Glen W Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    I imagine he's hearing what's coming out of his amp vs whatever mix. Sounded good to me anyway though.
     
  13. ping-ping-clicka

    ping-ping-clicka Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Early Hound Dog Taylor and J.D Hutto early recordings sound great and the weren't playing Custom Shop Amps and boutique Amps, not that there is anything wrong with that caliber of gear. What was Elmore James using on his early recordings? Oh and what about Jimmy Reed, what gear was he using.
    I'm waiting for the miracle, errr
     
  14. Refugee

    Refugee Tele-Meister

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    I think I'm about the only Youtuber that doesn't already have one of these Ox Boxes. Geesh, they're $1300.00! The GAS is strong with this device. As for Sco, he sounds like Sco. Even though a 58 is omnidirectional, you always get better results with it being a bit more on axis, I think. Then there's the Ox. Why mic, is a great question?

    Rats! Pirates just tied up with the Giants.
     
  15. TeleUpNorth

    TeleUpNorth Tele-Meister

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    It’s also in my mind that great tone for a group often sounds like bad tone alone. My amp is set to sound good in the group mix, which definitely sounds not as stunning playing alone.
     
  16. hepular

    hepular Tele-Afflicted

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    watch his rig rundown. it's not an inconceivable conclusion.
     
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  17. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

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    These convos are always illuminating.


    Personally, he might have some string/fret buzz that people are hearing, but I love the tone. I really like raspy clean old amp to guitar tone. Everything from the 50's Sun/Chess cuts, to Clapton on the Cash show, to Wes/Burrell/Green, even to funkier stuff like Hubert Sumlin, old Chet records, on through all those great Clapton/Page/Beck/etc Marshall stack era stuff.

    But, oof, that JC-120 with the chorus mixed to "10" and the tone knob turned down type Stern/Metheny, or superstrats with muffled humbuckers through processors or 20 bits of rack gear? Blegh....
     
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  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    They all used Murican made with pride by hand toob amps from Murican post WW1/WWII pride and rocket program pride workers.

    Boutique and Custom Shop attempt to replicate that old days worker pride.
    But with parts made by robots and children in China!

    Now them guitars?
    Terrible terrible stuff!
     
  19. Axegrinder77

    Axegrinder77 Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    Did anyone say that his tone was bad here?
     
  20. Axegrinder77

    Axegrinder77 Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    I have two attenuators for my drri that work pretty well - the captor x built in one and a dr z brake lite.

    I saw a demo with a guy saying that a volume pedal - after a buffer, end of chain - sounds and feels better to him. Hard to tell on a youtube vid, but I might try it. Have you tried this?

    I promised my wife no more pedals, but a volume pedal doesn't count, does it?
     
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