The first electric fire truck.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by imwjl, Jun 9, 2021 at 7:44 AM.

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  1. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm a serious news junkie and have a subscription that gets me 300+ papers and journals. My dad died young but he was a good judge who obsessed with bias and fairness and got me going on accuracy at a young age. I carry it on out of respect for that. I developed more interest in the accuracy, bias, fake and malicious topics from the security and operations management I've done for decades.

    Just like the Wall St. Journal and The Economist I read, the NY Times corrects their mistakes. It's something that occurs and how good publications with different bias are rated and considered quality.

    My best suggestion for understanding how the systems I administer (the post above) work and for what I perceive as your concern might a look into the work a Denver-based researcher and patent attorney started some years ago. Now she's got a separate business called Ad Fontes, but her/their annual media bias chart is very good because it analyzes both bias and accuracy.

    The why behind our having robots scan the millions of Internet requests I mention is not just to handle volume and security but also to help us be fair and good decision makers.
     
  2. KyAnne

    KyAnne Tele-Afflicted

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    What's gonna happen is we're gonna get knee-deep in all this "tech/green" crap and find out it doesn't work well at all. Nowhere near what we use now. It's just another diversion to take us down another effed-up path scheme to take even more of our money from us. And don't forget about the massive land-grabs taking place. All this is well planned out. It is NOT a good plan for the "non-sheeple". :)
     
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  3. Bob Womack

    Bob Womack Tele-Afflicted

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    First off, I worked on the very first Earth Day. However, I developed a jaundiced eye towards the environmental protest industry when I worked at an environmental measurement company in the '70s. We were a hired-gun, hired by the government, environmental concerns, and power companies to test the impact of power stations and issue environmental impact statements. We worked for the person who was fustest with the mostest, and as a result, we had to keep a clean record of objectivity. Back then the environmental protest industry vehemently opposed the building of ALL nuclear plants and did so loudly and long to the point where nuclear energy is far more expensive than it needs to be. They nearly protested and regulated nuclear power out of existence. We would do our testing and issue our reports and then watch the data showing that a company had met regulatory demands be manipulated dishonestly to further the anti-nuc agenda.

    I learned also that much of the environmental movement of the period was driven less by love of the environment and logic and more by seething hate for anyone who disagreed with the members of the movement and emotion.

    Funny, huh?

    Bob
     
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  4. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    On pay their way and meet the needs... The utility I keep talking about here and where @Buckocaster51 brother did approvals is land locked by other monopolies and had to give up their main coal power plant years ago. They have to depend on other transmission companies. They serve a state government, regional health center, very active installation of F-18s, a university that's a $ billions economic engine and more. It's much of why they're going after the independence and super-resilient power grid in this area. Look up the current cost of small gas plants vs wind and solar. It's just simple business.

    @KyAnne I hope I answered your concern. The several smaller than traditional and unconventional or diverse power plants include being about not allowing what occurred in TX recently. I've already said what you call land grabs are roofs, otherwise unusable land such as by the airport, farm ridges animals still graze and nearly all new commercial construction.

    @Bob Womack I've been in business operations and get stuff done non-partisan or non-party town hall volunteering and appointments for decades now. I sniff the bias you mention just as well as the bias you hold. I turned from against this stuff (I tend towards skeptic) to for based on sound information, and more so now that I see the results over time.

    Many get embarrassingly silly on the energy topic and take sides that can only be considered tribal or parochial behavior. My boss and I just made significant purchase decisions involving refrigeration, cameras and lights across the enterprise. In adding up power consumption and cabling requirements someone spouted silliness on being green - no, we were just being smart making sure we were aware of overall costs and did stuff that would work well.

    Edit: I almost beg for people to be more reasonable and open minded. I know how to handle it as an infrastructure manager but it creates burn out and a lack of talent for those like me who give time to help at a local level. The parochial behavior makes it harder and harder to get quality people who give time and effort where they live.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 5:14 PM
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  5. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    so, are you saying that the people who hate the new technologies are like the environmentalists were back then?

    because they are opposed to wind farms and solar and want to make it hard for people to innovate, the people who oppose that stuff is like the environmentalists who fought anyone who disagreed with them?

    IIRC the clean air act actually passed unanimously.... but it was a pretty good thing, right? Or should it have been opposed?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(United_States)
     
  6. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Afflicted

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    I used to, back when they were an actual newspaper. These days, they're a hot journalistic mess.

    Not the answer you expected, was it?
     
  7. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Afflicted

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    Interesting to hear this from a Texan. I recently learned that Texas has a huge number of wind turban farms, perhaps owned by the same energy companies that deal in oil? (Texas leads the nation in wind-powered generation and produced about 28% of all U.S. wind-powered electricity in 2020.). The finances of your statement don't make sense. If the combined expenses of producing the aluminum turban are greater than the value of the electricity produced over the life cycle of it, nobody would buy them.

    As for nuclear energy. Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, plus others that didn't make the news cycle. And the equally big question of what to do with the waste when it's time to decommission. The fact is power companies stopped building nuclear power plants a long time ago because the're too expensive to build and not financially feasible to operate. The same is behind reduced coal production, It's expensive to mine and with the advent of fracking, natural gas is a much more lucrative fuel.

    Personally I'd love to see nuclear fusion, if we could just figure out a way to break up those water molecules.:rolleyes:
     
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  8. trev333

    trev333 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Is anyone exploiting the thermal energy around Yellowstone and other hot sites for steam powered turbines?
     
  9. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Afflicted

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    As I read the naysayers, these points popped into my head (I don't have a background in firefighting though).

    1. How many fire stations only have one firetruck (especially in urban areas) I'm guessing most have 2-3, they do in my small city.
    2. I understanding firetrucks to be exceptionally heavy but needing to get moving fast in a hurry. Sounds like the ideal application for electric motors.
    3. How far is a typical run for a firetruck? I'm guessing <10miles. I imagine they're designed with enough battery reserve to do that and then some.
    4. The back up diesel pump ensures that they're going to be pumping water regardless of how much battery reserve is left. As far as maintenance on the actual truck itself, everything I've read points to way less maintenance involved on EVs, so much less moving parts.
     
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  10. myteleplaysjazz

    myteleplaysjazz Tele-Holic

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    I do believe that the big giant nuclear power plants with the domed containment reactors are a thing of the past. But I believe its still a viable option, just on a much smaller scale.
    We've had nuclear powered aircraft carriers for decades and the US Navy has never had a nuclear power accident.
    As for wind power the U.S. government is currently subsidizing wind turbine power, so it’s hard to say what would happen to the market were the subsidy not there.

    I'm not trying to dismiss alternative sources of energy, I just think we should have complete understanding of all aspects of production before we call something "green".
     
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  11. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm sorry but you are wrong and not up to date on some important points. There have been military nuclear accidents. On wind subsidy I think you mean the production tax credit scheduled to end by 2020. This is June 2021. Coal however is still subsidized. IIRC, fossils fuel subsidies were several times wind.

    What or where do you think there's an incomplete understanding with alternative sources of energy? Turbines and photovoltaic cells are generations old technologies. It's a nascent industry, but the automotive battery makers have extensive processes and plans for life cycle. Recycling already exists. I'm sure there are imperfections things to learn but not that it means we have no understanding.
     
  12. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm sorry but you are wrong about subsidies for "clean" energy and traditional energy. Wrong to the tune of billions, $5 billion in one year alone for direct subsidies to wind. In fact, for every megawatt of power that wind generates, we pay $56 each. For the same amount of coal and natural gas, we paid 63 cents. Making matters worse, wind produces less than 5 percent of our total energy needs. And wind only generates power when its blowing, with peak generation coming at late night and early mornings when demand is lowest. That means it needs coal or natural gas to backstop it.

    The subsidies for fossil fuels is exclusively tax credits, not direct support, and it targets small independents, not Big Oil. On the topic of tax credits, wind got $4.9 billion last year, solar got $2.4 billion, and the three tax deductions for oil and gas were $0.9 billion. I think one of the incomplete understandings about alternative energy is just exactly how much it really costs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 1:51 AM
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  13. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm aware of the scheduled change for PTC that is past, and already explained my employer's reasoning for paying more. Please help me stay current and cite your sources.

    Some of your logic is hard to follow. Maybe live in one of the places where wind doesn't work so well by you but it achieves the intended purposes here. Wind is one of the tools in my utility's total inventory. Kind of like I'm not getting rid of or I'm glad I have my right angle socket or channel locking type pliers even though I use other tools more often.

    I believe I already explained why at work the owners chose the program that powers this fire truck though it does cost more. I respect their very conservative and wanting independence ways. Our customers are not forced to shop with us or take our efforts for independence and specializing local ecomomy. For Madison and my neighboring city no one's forced to move here. Our ways and plans have created such a nice place and so much prosperity that it's almost a problem but a good problem.

    It's really hard for me to forget the issues when we had the sub-station explosion and cascading issues or what occurred in TX recently so I'm staying firm with the plans for this area and happy to pay for it.

    Did you read this when I posted it earlier? One of these small gas fired/powered plants is east of us. Yesterday afternoon it was 92 deg and the wind turbines were all spinning. It will be sweet when they've (the small plant owner) got storage and we're less dependent on the gas pipeline but as is, we already have something better than a decade ago.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/batteries-challenge-natural-gas-elecric-power-generation-11620236583

    Unless I really misunderstand you, I don't follow the logic of not pursuing innovation and incremental improvements.

    Maybe two carpenter friends are perfect examples of the attitudes here. One obsesses to find old simple 2wd pickup trucks and loathes what is sold now. The other gets new fangled every two years and gladly pays the premium. I'm glad they have choice and more like the guy willing to pay for improvements. Familiar with both, I'm not going to say the 1982 F-250 is superior to the new one because it's not.
     
  14. Bob Womack

    Bob Womack Tele-Afflicted

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    No. I'm saying that the people who universally endorse something, anything except fossil fuels and view anyone else with hate are the same as those who fought nuclear power back then. In fact, many of the same people are involved and have simply altered thei narrative as the dire circumstances they predicted haven't come true. Today, the foo is just on the other shoet. [​IMG] To understand, you'd have to remember the term, "nuclear winter."

    [quoteIIRC the clean air act actually passed unanimously.... but it was a pretty good thing, right? Or should it have been opposed?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(United_States)[/QUOTE]I am for things that rationally protect the earth, while maintaining a high view of the value of man. I am skeptical of absolutist activism in many forms.

    Bob
     
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  15. Joe M

    Joe M Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Ok, we’re done here….
     
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