The first electric fire truck.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by imwjl, Jun 9, 2021 at 7:44 AM.

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  1. perttime

    perttime Friend of Leo's

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    One idea that has been proposed for vehicles is a "hybrid" where you have a smallish internal combustion engine running constantly at peak efficiency, mainly charging the batteries. You rarely use all the power of a car engine. You'd have enough in the batteries for acceleration, and the rest of the time you'd pretty much be just cruising along.
     
  2. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm confused by your response to my post and parts of this.

    I've repeatedly posted the great article and series that addresses costs or negative externalities. I'm a bit confused because you are also using a term we typically got from detractors more than any of us used when having to learn and make decisions. We considered it sustainability and reducing infrastructure costs and business recruitment in the city decision making role, and renewable energy program where I work. The latter is exact same program the fire station is in. I've used the green label in more sarcastic or smarmy output.

    You've lost me on how the construction and demolition or recycling costs only count for solar and wind but not a nuclear facility. I've witnessed the birth and death of more than one in my area. They were popular when I was young and it fascinated me. My dad even drove me to construction sites because a nuclear plant was proposed in our town.

    I'm hopeful for a startup such as TerraPower but it's not here or helping the way I've already seen the small facilities where I live. I can only speak with great certainty for my municipality where I was one of the people appointed to the study and decision making committee. For that, our municipal installations and "farms" (solar or wind) they are considered like a big box ordinance where the owners/builders have responsibility for the whole life cycle.

    You've got me totally lost on the point of inefficient. I know the new installations are more effective than earlier ones but the whole point that got the solar panels and wind turbines in this conservative upper Midwest town was and is the business case presented by and analyzed by the finance and accounting experts.

    Some detractors cited and still cite the life cycle or time for payback but for the city we looked at the typically long life cycle for major projects and facilities. For the company the 100+ years it's been in business.

    We're just one place but maybe your fears about a dead end are answered by what I've posted. Some of the benefits are a little hard to quantify. For the city it was part of keeping and courting some employers and keeping at a history of good planning. For the company being in the same program as the fire station it mattered to the owners and some customers in ways beyond the bottom line.

    What I think we all witnessed in TX recently, and the sub-station explosions I mentioned carried weight. The new facilities and what I understand is a gas power plant owner's pursuit of storage are elements to help insure stability.

    This overall change is complicated stuff but just business sense and analysis supports doing it. You see people change when they get outside of parochial behavior and act on good information.
     
  3. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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  4. telestratosonic

    telestratosonic Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Most of the electricity produced in Alberta is from a half-dozen coal-fired generating stations/plants. However, at least two plants have been converted to natural gas so far. As I understand it, the goal is to convert the remaining plants to natural gas as well.

    Natural gas produces 1/5 of the GHS produced by coal. While not perfect, some may opine, it's a start. Personally, I'm for less consumption.

    Over 90% of Manitoba's electricity is produced by hydro dams in northern Manitoba. Manitoba has lots of dams and lots of surplus hydro. The markets for their surplus hydro are Ontario and the US.

    The downside is that when vegetation is flooded for the huge dam reservoirs, mercury is produced. Because of the potential for mercury poisoning and its side effects, the Indigenous peoples in the area have been subject to fish-consumption limits for decades. Fish is a diet staple up there and even if people could afford to, there ain't no Walmarts up there.
     
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  5. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Kind of supports why I felt the new fire truck is more thought out than its detractors might believe. Lots of people visualize Oshkosh as near-ancient airport and mountain pass snow plows or old school army truck. Classic gapminder scenario. The now military and now Oshkosh are not just meat carrying guns in heavy metal trucks.

    The conversations exploded locally without any moderation on social media and that exposed both absurd and interesting stuff. Oshkosh has been invested in fast charging and high tech for a good while. China has been more forward thinking and so the fast charge busses and industrial stuff actually got started in use there 10 years ago. Fortunately one of the Chinese bus makers is also manufacturing and delivering product in the US so we are not cut out of the innovation.
     
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  6. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    @imwjl often I am left sorting through the 'pickin and choosin' of how we construct our stances on issues. The person who will, with great passion, defend their right to 'live' which amounts to riding a motorcycle without a helmet and do other things that were commonplace 40 years ago, but now are known to be more dangerous than their benefit provides and those same folks will tell us, 'go ahead and live in a bubble but don't make me live in that bubble'.... those same people will tell folks we better be SUPER careful with an electric firetruck because, you know, people could get hurt.

    If you sit in the middle and actually read and study and see and participate in the world, you gotta just accept that nothing is new. The folks who fought the horseless carriage, are now fighting the electric one. some of us are wired for seeing only the threat of new things and some are fascinated by how things might be different.

    If we step back and witness, the path is pretty evident, so, even worrying about the debate (especially if it gets in the way of enjoying the change) is counterproductive.

    The people fighting the change will end up defending it, if you shift the timeline.
     
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  7. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yes. The Oshkosh news, see my post on the fake historical bike event, and some ag and drought news plus some work intelligence news got me looking at our the historical society here and some university content. Those same negative people get occasional data points to stand on, but the overall progression is winning, innovating and fixing.

    There is no way the group we often call Luddites can stand against the mix of curiosity, innovation, and business with education that drives this stuff.

    You probably know who the Morgridges are or at least Cisco in your neck of the woods. Something really cool in my past day's tangents was another reminder of how they're fueling change. They haven't just given new buildings, but a $175 million fund for poorest qualified kids in my state to become business, engineering and education grads. No one's gong to have much luck beating drive and innovation.

    We should be proud of all this stuff.
     
  8. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    pride and fear are not always happy bedfellows.
     
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  9. Bob Womack

    Bob Womack Tele-Afflicted

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    He attacked the source, not the content.

    Bob
     
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  10. myteleplaysjazz

    myteleplaysjazz Tele-Holic

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    I'm under the impression that you are stating that these new forms of energy are "green".
    And to clarify "green", I think we all understand that as environmentally unobtrusive.
    I illustrated that they are not. Far from it actually.
    It takes 8 hours to fully charge an electric vehicle. This truck, with its massive battery banks, probably takes that long or longer. (If charge time was posted, I apologize for missing it) Point being is that you'd have to take the Fire Truck out of service during the recharge time. I hope no fires occur during the charging duration. Or maybe a diesel truck is at the ready during this truck's charging down time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 1:17 PM
  11. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Afflicted

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    Since I was the first to comment on the source, I'll add that I've taken the time to evaluate enough of PragerU's past content and self-stated biases that I don't consider them a reliable source.

    I don't keep reading the Weekly World News in hopes their reporting will become credible, either, but I suppose anything's possible.
     
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  12. Blrfl

    Blrfl Tele-Afflicted

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    Or just pull the plug when the bell rings and run on whatever's in the battery until you have to switch to diesel.

    Seems to me that Pierce would have studied how the trucks get used in real life and how they'd be charged before sizing the battery pack.
     
  13. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Technically, the source is rather a cess pit even though it products a lot of content that supports popular opinions. I'll explain that this way.

    In my day job I'm in essence a moderator and watch dog with the help of first tier security tools and databases. In my volunteer work I'm a forum moderator. For both I manage some high volume commercial Facebook pages. We use products that filter for malicious content, and reasonable measures of accuracy and bias. Also DNS-based security and inline content filtering and advanced malware protection.

    It's on the radar often. We (IT dept) monitor about 3.3+ million Internet requests every 30 days and the Prager stuff comes up in the about 5% that gets blocked. Not the conservative Wall St. Journal I've been referencing.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with criticizing a source with poor record for accuracy and known for extreme bias.
     
  14. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Two things here.

    On "green". I was the appointee to represent what you might want to label business and conservative when we made the local decisions. As more of a skeptic I still saw the options we have as more or towards what people call green but this was not at silliness. It was careful and studied consideration for the well being and economics of our city. The utility company itself with strong knowledge of their footprint on earth was working to both pollute less and cost less - remember, we courted and got a $5 billion plus Russell 1000 manufacturing company to build their new headquarters here.

    Where I work, joining that energy program that powers the fire truck did cost more but I work for people who are really serious about their moral and religious beliefs. They felt very strongly about paying the small premium from their understanding of how it does cut emissions, and being really attracted to running the two locations without any dependence on energy from other states or countries. They are very conservative people in an intellectual sense if not political.

    I chatted up an associate who's had hands on with the firetruck, and one who follows the BEV and defense topics. I already said how deep Oshkosh has been in this. This person reminded they've been an investor in the firm that's had an about 10 year start on fast charge and transportation systems. I noticed their investment in Microvast. It's said their huge business as a defense contractor is part of the experience. Remember, their vehicle won for next generation postal service vehicle.

    I'm sure a version 2 will be better than a version 1 but also sure some of the posts here are not really aware of how much homework has been done on next generation transportation.
     
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  15. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    in a monolithic, linear world, you MIGHT have a point. In the actual world, when the fellers get back to the fire house, they back the engine in, hook up to their mondo rapid charger, wipe her down and she charges while the boys wait for another call. Industrial vehicles won't be charging for 8 hours, they'll have industrial chargers.

    The guys who designed this had experience in the world of fire fighting and all the requirements of it.

    So, the odds that this truck will be out of service are about as good as a conventional truck running out of diesel OR one of its many componets in the drive train failing. The electric vehicle, by design, has fewer break points, fewer things to maintenance.
     
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  16. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I cannot imagine Pierce would risk their reputation and deliver a less than stellar life saving machine.
     
  17. burntfrijoles

    burntfrijoles Poster Extraordinaire

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    My next SUV will hopefully be an electric vehicle. That's likely 5 years away so there should be a decent selection of them; more charging stations and more safety features.
     
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  18. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    Do you read the NY Times? Are they unbiased? Are they honest about their bias? Is their information accurate (trick question, they actually won a Pulitzer for stories that later the author admitted were fake. I think they kept the Pulitzer).

    If the presenter isn't giving you enough to assess the quality of the information on your own then you are indeed lost in this day and age. There is no one in the media and mass communication who is above reproach anymore.
     
  19. myteleplaysjazz

    myteleplaysjazz Tele-Holic

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    I fully believe that as well. I'm just pointing out possible contingencies.
     
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  20. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    While we're on the subject of strawmen there are also the cheerleaders who see anything new and shiny as an improvement that we must all embrace at our peril, and will go so far as to propose that those who don't "get on board" are somehow backwards and should be ignored.

    When it comes to green energy we are beyond boosterism and instead should be highly suspicious of it in whatever form it takes. Energy needs to pencil out, it needs to pay its own way. It needs to meet us where we are, be useable across a wide range of platforms and needs to be cheaper and more abundant than the alternative.

    All the rah-rah cheering falls to the wayside when technology is deployed into the field and people begin to depend on it. And that goes for electric fire trucks.

    As I read the brochure I would guess that the diesel engine is still going to log a lot of hours and I'd speculate that in the real-world application the battery will be supplementing the combustion engine and not the other way around. It boasts a 90 minute charge, which sure sounds good. Now its up to the crews to report back to their local communities on whether it actually delivers on that. And that means reporting back at Year One, Year Two, Year Three.

    I will remain skeptical just because my limited understanding of battery technology is that that is precisely the choke point for "green energy." But who knows, maybe they've cracked that nut finally and we can all celebrate. Maybe they've found a quick charging battery that does not diminish in performance over time. I'm just not willing to celebrate until its established that it can actually deliver what's promised in the brochures.
     
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