The first electric fire truck.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by imwjl, Jun 9, 2021 at 7:44 AM.

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  1. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I don't know if you're meaning Michael Shellenberger or Dennis Prager. For this topic and my having had responsibility for decisions their fans pushed and push a don't do anything now because of the potential nuclear power has. They're right about the potential. If we didn't take action we would not have achieved some really important things. I'm meaning the resilience and economic prosperity. For example, we have a $5 billion company that moved its headquarters from New York to about 1.5 miles from my house. Several smaller businesses have all acted or stayed for what I'll call a sustainability or quality city strategy.

    We've discussed the importance of jobs in other threads. This stuff - what powers that fire truck - has done much to help that. The strategy to go after new era, high tech, finance and science jobs has been a really good thing for an area that used to be "rust belt". Now the manufacturing we have is different and mostly more sophisticated than decades ago but those jobs and the ones that support them are all strong here. We're long into having lower unemployment than the rest of the state and country.
     
  2. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yep, and having watched the two Prager U segments I'm firmly behind both forms of tech, because they promote good paying mining jobs into the foreseeable future. And I must admit that I enjoy the irony of seeing an electric car and contemplating how much coal was used to get that thing down the road.

    But what is essential when considering deploying new bleeding edge tech in emergency services such as the fire department is a cold-eyed examination of how it performed when needed. The news coverage of all the fire departments taking a chance on a new electric Pierce engine does no instill much confidence that there will be an objective examination of whether this technology is up to such an important task.

    My cynical view is that we will just have take a look around in 5 years time and note how many fire departments also adopted this type of apparatus, or how many got rid of it and replaced it with something more dependable. Maybe electric engines will be cheaper to operate and reliable enough to depend on. I think this particular area of essential services is no place for unskeptical cheerleading. I'm sure anyone who owns a home would agree. Clean energy is no different than any other form of energy; in the end it has to pay its own way to take hold with consumers. It can't be foisted upon us and hope to survive.
     
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  3. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Have you read that Wall Street Journal article I've posted repeatedly and others in the series? No one with any credibility is saying there's no cost of manufacturing, and the life cycle of the BEV cars have net benefit.

    Am I misunderstanding you? Are you one who says don't pursue incremental gains because someone might reach perfection later?
     
  4. MarkieMark

    MarkieMark Friend of Leo's

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    I truly wish more people would do their part to address this...

    I think that is exactly what is happening when an example of different technology like this is put in service to test the application.

    Increments.

    My question is, if this becomes more common will we have to start calling them fire motors instead of fire engines? :twisted:
     
  5. Cosmic Cowboy

    Cosmic Cowboy Tele-Holic

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    I can dig it. Hopefully these innovations will lead to a meaningful re-evaluation of the energy grid. That's where the real issue lies. Can we make enough energy...cheap enough...with renewables...to compete in a very competitive world?
     
  6. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    Uh, we already are making enough energy. So, yes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021 at 7:46 PM
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  7. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    No, I'm saying don't use experimental technology to bring a fire truck to a fire unless you are absolutely sure that it will work every single time. This isn't the hipster down the block washing his Tesla in his driveway knowing that tomorrow he's going to ride his bike to work. It's a fire truck that speeds to someone's house, pump thousands of gallons of water then be back in service immediately after they finish at the fireground.
     
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  8. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    I mentioned the awareness via rumors in my first post. The development was not overnight. Pierce is a division of Oshkosh Truck. If you're not aware they do $ billions (I think around $7 billion a year) business for many militaries in the world. They're also the developer of the next gen US postal service vehicle that's electric. They make a lot of specialty stuff.

    Asking a city council member and firefighter friend I learned a few years of testing was done before Madison took delivery of the first unit sold to customers. The 200 calls it did in 3 weeks of ownership was also testing of sorts for the city. The firefighter friend said it's really just a mostly same model truck Madison buys that can uses it's diesel engine but mostly doesn't have to.

    I'm being a little silly about Oshkosh but most of their customers are tree huggers - defense departments around the world. Groups known for their interest sustainability and pushing the envelope for capabilities. The sustainability topic is a big component in keeping peace. Oshkosh has already had other commercial electric vehicles in addition to military electric vehicle experience.

    A friend in construction trades said an Oshkosh division has been a leader in battery powered lifts they buy - I guess superior battery technology for lifts he uses.

    My bet is there will be plenty of learning with the first production model but I think you're off the mark on this being anything that's hasty or poorly thought out. Don't forget that it still has a diesel engine if all else fails.
     
  9. Fendereedo

    Fendereedo Poster Extraordinaire

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    That's very cool.
     
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  10. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    I'm familiar with Pierce and I used to be a volunteer firefighter so this subject is not totally foreign to me. I'll be curious to see how much diesel they burn in a week.
     
  11. sabot

    sabot TDPRI Member

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    What makes an electric vehicle "experimental technology"?

    It's a truck, it obviously works for that fire department. Unless you believe they just bought it without ever trying it out. How about the Ford F-150 Lightning? Or there are the Teslas that will embarrass gas-powered cars costing many multiples of their price.

    If the chance that things might get still better means it's an experimental technology then gas never stopped being experimental. Gas-powered vehicles are still improving.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021 at 9:02 PM
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  12. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    The claim none so far probably does not take into account the testing and readiness. My understanding for the first 200 calls is none.
     
  13. SecretSquirrel

    SecretSquirrel Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I don't always agree with Thomas Edison, but when I do, it's 100%


    Edison solar.jpg
     
  14. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Read what was posted and what @Buckocaster51 posted to verify the reality of this area. The station just like the grocery store and data center I was at all day are 100% powered by solar, wind and hydro. Some of it I'll see on the walk I'm about to take. There's another new facility about 1.5 mi from my house.

    You might be right about the mine but also read the Wall St. Journal article I keep posting. If you have, are you saying we (homo sapiens) should not do things that are incremental improvements or that have net benefits just because some day there might be a perfect solution to everything?

    A lot of us are very conservative here in the upper Midwest. I'm not meaning the tribal and political ways that come to mind but stuff like independence and well being. We don't have much coal here and many are increasingly wary of natural gas - the management and behavior from your state has driven that. Many suffered in what's known as Rust Belt. We seem to have a really sweet thing now where people of very different opinions and beliefs seem to agree on the this new modern stuff. In my town it's also gaining interest because it's such an obvious contributor to prosperity. Mining is dead here now. High tech manufacturing is healthy. The wind part gets components into our ports and assembled in the region.

    The parent company for this fire truck employs 16,000 people in 29 US facilities and ships their stuff world wide. What this truck signifies is something we should be very proud of.
     
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  15. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    Fire trucks need to be in constant service for three shifts 24/7. What you think qualifies as "obviously works" isn't really going to be established for quite some time to come.
     
  16. sabot

    sabot TDPRI Member

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    Yah OK, I'm just going to leave it here. If this fire truck turns out to be not fit for purpose, if the people whose decision it was decided to forego the usual tests and trials, we'll hear it stridently from the usual places. If it just works we probably won't.
     
  17. trev333

    trev333 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I used to build fire engines when I was younger...

    the dept calls them "Appliances" rather than fire trucks.... they're more than just a truck...;)
     
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  18. Buckocaster51

    Buckocaster51 Super Moderator Staff Member Ad Free Member

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  19. myteleplaysjazz

    myteleplaysjazz Tele-Holic

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    My previous post was deleted because of the use of ONE SINGLE WORD! Their site. They're rules. I'm ok with that.

    Here we go again:

    Hydro/electric is NOT a green technology. Diesel powered dump trucks and excavators have to dam up a waterway to build a dam out of concrete which must also be mined and processed, and brought to the site by... diesel powered trucks. This very process also disrupts migratory patterns - Permanently. I would also hope there's going to be some steel in that concrete as well. Big, giant thick re-bars, and lots of them too! It takes a LOT of energy to make steel. And of course to be of any use the dam will need generators; Generators that have massive copper windings in them.

    Wind power is not a green technology either. The tower, blades and converter are all made from aluminum which of course has to be mined and refined. In fact, it takes more energy to mine, smelt, refine, process, build and transport the wind mill than you get back out of it over the lifetime of the device. How does that help? It doesn't. And it too disrupts migratory patterns; just ask the birds. Furthermore, the windings in the converter are copper. Mining and refining of copper is a very caustic process. There is nothing "green" about that.

    Solar may hold some promise, but it is extremely inefficient when it comes to the energy in to energy out ratio. And that energy has to be stored somewhere - like a battery - a lithium ion battery!

    I'm not suggesting that we keep doing things the way we've always done them simply because, well, that's the way we've always done them. But don't let someone sell you on a technology as being "better" just because they put the word "green" in front of it. We should think these things through for ourselves and realize the net outcome, or at least question it.

    Personally, I think that nuclear power holds the best promise. Think about it: The most powerful energy source in the universe, and we use it to..... heat water to make steam. o_O
    A 200 year old technology at best.
    One can't help but to think that we're missing something there.
    Sure, there's that one nasty little bi-product known as radiation. But I've heard of a new technology that uses lasers to blast the radio-active particles into harmless elemental fragments.
    We'll see. I just hope we don't go down a path that leads to a technological dead end just because someone says its "green" and we all run towards it like some shiny new object.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021 at 11:35 PM
  20. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yeah, that appears to be a hybrid vehicle that seemlessly switches between electric and diesel while driving and (more importantly) pumping. So I'd guess given the way diesel engines operate that its got to be running in the background while in operation.
     
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