The FASTEST way to MASTER ..............

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by kbold, Aug 4, 2021.

  1. kbold

    kbold Friend of Leo's

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    (Fill in your own word where the dots are.)

    This post came from a video on UTube I came across, having recently purchased an almost new camera.



    It seems to me you could substitute 'photography' with 'guitar' (or any musical instrument).
    If you want to get to the punch-line, forward to 10:40, where you would substitute 'shooting' for 'practice'.
     
  2. beanluc

    beanluc Tele-Afflicted

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    Read less, do more.
     
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  3. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    I might be a little hazy on this, but I think Herbert Simon, in Sciences of the Artificial, used chess as an example. I don't remember if it was 10,000 matches or 10,000 hours. I might have a copy around here, so I'll check it out.
     
  4. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Do adult humans really benefit from this? The 10,000 hours seems more an illustrative model, rather than a formula that can be divided into separate activities of learning individual skills.

    I have the mental picture of people walking around keeping track of their hours, instead of doing things purposefully. Just because, say, BB King became competent while chalking up 10,000 hours, it doesn't mean that 10,000 hours is the requirement or goal in itself.
     
  5. loopfinding

    loopfinding Friend of Leo's

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    agree, i've probably played over 10,000 hours and i'm no master, hahaha.

    i think the importance of working smart over working hard can't be stressed enough. i'm reminded of a guy i knew in high school who did not have any extreme 8 hour a day practice regimen, just a really good teacher and the right focus. that guy started out pretty rough (as in, he definitely didn't seem like he had any particular "natural inclination" or whatever). he went to off to private school for a few years after getting that new teacher, and when he came back to jam with us in senior year he was playing almost at pro level, absolutely kicked all of our asses. didn't even go on to study music, it was just his hobby.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
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  6. teletail

    teletail Friend of Leo's

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    As I understand it, and agree with it, it's 10,000 hours STUDYING something, not 10,000 just doing something. I know plenty of people that have been playing for years and aren't really a whole lot better now than they were when I met them. If you just play the same songs, the same tired licks, the same way, you're not getting any better.

    As someone said, "At the end of 10 years, make sure you have 10 years of experience, not one year of experience 10 times."
     
  7. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    Above -- CORRECT -- 10,000 hours of studying a single thing, not a compilation of things.


    We run across people each day where they may have been in business or doing something ( a skill) for 20 years and we scratch our heads , "wow that person has 20 years experience and still doesn't know what they are doing" . Thats because they repeated the 1st year 20 times.


    Years back a good professional player friend told me this as I was beginning to play Pedal Steel. practice that one thing , 5 min a day for 30 days, you will probably be better than anyone in town on that one thing, but you will still stink at everything else ! LOL - we both laughed but Ray was right.


    Its called "perfect practice" Are we noodling the same things each time we pick up the guitar ? always staying in our comfort zone ? Or are we actually working thru phrases that we are really struggling with, over and over...and over and over -- for days, weeks etc. Until we get it right ?


    I told this story once before, I know its boring, I'll tell it again.

    A year or two back we had another guitar player in our band, he was talented but not committed to a practice routine at home. He jumps around trying to play flashy licks which are sloppy as all get go. One song we play, Peaceful Easy Feeling, I'm not bragging but I've got the original down, so much so that now I solo around the solo. I can change it up or stay within Bernie's excellent formula. The other guitar player told me that he is still struggling with the solo and he must have practiced it a dozen time's. I asked him, do you think I have that one down ? he said yeah man you nail it every time. I then replied, thats because I worked on it at home probably 1000 times. I still play this one and many others in a practice session at home frequently. We can never practice a solo too many times, but we can certainly "NOT" practice a solo enough . In this mode, on the gig, we are praying that we get thru it without an error.

    We should do things that we are trying to learn or that we are struggling with over and over again until we can SEE the solos and positions before we even touch the fret board. All of a sudden one day....

    all it takes is seat time.

    Remember the Beatles ? Before they even had a record or were discovered, they were touring Europe for around 3 years, playing as many as 30 gigs each month. When they hit the scene they were referred to as a new band . A "new band" , that played 1000 gigs over the last 3 years ! LOL, now thats funny ! :)

    So I guess, to answer the question, what's the fattest way to improvement ? Sit down and practice the rough stuff over and over instead of NOT sitting down and practicing the rough stuff over and over ! At some point we gotta sit down and practice, so don't waste time , start now ! LOL ! :)
    '
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  8. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    There’s way less to modern photography than playing a musical instrument at a high level.

    Photography is probably a really bad skill to use the 10k hour rule on compared to guitar as significant work has gone into making photography much easier than it used to be.
     
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  9. Old Deaf Roadie

    Old Deaf Roadie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    The only way to master anything is by repetition and diligence.
     
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  10. kbold

    kbold Friend of Leo's

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    Possibly ... but perhaps only through the lens of the observer. :D

    Besides the 10,000 hours, of relevance is the pie chart where he approximates how much time you should give to different aspects to achieve competence.
    This was the original thought behind my post.
     
  11. JL_LI

    JL_LI Poster Extraordinaire

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    Before I retired, I was an engineer, the training manager. I’d tell my charges, “Learn the math.” It wasn’t as much the math as it was the basics. Learn the basics. All that fancy stuff is layered over the basics and without the basics, there’s no foundation.
     
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  12. Killing Floor

    Killing Floor Friend of Leo's

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    This is a good point and I'm sure there are some people logging work or practice or training of some kind. But in general, this equates to 5 years of full-time, task-specific effort. Or consider a kid who plays (a telecaster, blonde or better yet, Daphne blue) for 2 hours a day for 10 years. Or an athlete. Remember what your guitar teacher probably told you, coaches say the same thing. The real difference is what you do after practice, after lessons, on your own. So while 10,000 hours is a number that can seem like an arbitrary number the theory tracks pretty well. People who are sincerely driven and better yet, self-driven at a specific skill tend to succeed at higher levels than those who are seen as simply talented.
     
  13. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Whether it's 10,000 hours or 7,826 hours isn't really the point. As most here have mentioned or alluded to - it's a lot of work and it needs to be purpose and/or goal oriented. When I was 13 I decided I wanted to be a musician. I started taking lessons from a respected (and really great) teacher: chords, scales, arpeggios, reading, improv, and listening suggestions. I got into a local community 'youth band and also started jamming with other kids in the neighborhood (horribly of course). When I went to high school I got into the 'stage' band (jazz ensemble). In order to play in the stage band you also had to be in marching band. They gave me a glockenspiel (marching xylophone) and put me in the percussion section. This forced me to learn to read notation. There was another guitar player in the jazz band who was a senior. He showed me the ropes so to speak. After he graduated, I had it all to myself. The rhythm section along with one of the sax players formed a combo and we rehearsed at lunch or after school in the band room. My extra curricular rock bands got better and better, etc., etc., etc.

    My point being is that I was pushed by circumstance to work to get better. Yeah, I practiced scales and stuff but mostly I was just constantly put in a position of having to learn something that I didn't know and was hard for me to play. To this day I don't really have any type of focused practice regimen. If I don't have something new I need to learn or at least work on - I don't practice. If 3 or 4 or 5 days go by and I don't touch a guitar and I'm maybe feeling a little stiff or guilty, I will pick something to 'work on'. Usually it's putting on a record and finding a cool line to transcribe. *Just recently it was some gospel tinged chord voicings of Wynton Kelly and four bars of a McCoy Tyner solo. Doing this almost always leads me down into a rabbit hole and the next thing I know is that I've just put in 3 or 4 solid hours of actual "study".

    YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2021
  14. beanluc

    beanluc Tele-Afflicted

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    Just understand what 10,000 hours is.

    It's equivalent to doing something as a full time 40-hr/week job for 5 years, AND getting better/promoted along the way, not just coasting for 5 years.

    Does anyone doubt that's what it takes?
     
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  15. Mark E Rhodes

    Mark E Rhodes Tele-Meister

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    The Romans said "repetitio est mater studiorum." Repetition is the mother of learning. There's a lot to be said for that.
    But as Troy Grady has demonstrated with his camera and research, not all repetition is equal. (When people are playing fast they aren't just doing what they were doing when playing slow, only faster. We tend to think it would be like that but it's actually not, at least, not necessarily.)
    The biggest thing that helped me with my technique was looking at a few lines that I could play fast and accurately and figuring out how I was playing them. (One can also look at some lines that one has played many, many times but for some reason they often contain mistakes or at least inaccuracies.)
    In the first case, I could come up with a new line and play it fast (and accurate) right away.
    For example, it is very easy for me to sweep upwards across three strings, even four. Many people find that difficult. It's easy for me. So I have shifted some lines that I had fingered another way so that I can play them this way.
    It is NOT so easy for me to sweep downward. (The motion is easy but the timing is not. I actually throw in some upstrokes in lines like that because I can play more accurately that way and keep a solid time feel.) Why is that? Hell, I don't know. If I was a kid again, I might try to change everything. But I'm not, so I have to learn to make do with what my body is going to do anyway. ;o)

    All that to say this, I believe I spent more time practicing lines than I should have because the way I was practicing them (-slow, with a metronome) is not the way my hand moves when the tempo is brisk. I really don't need to practice the picking motion; I have to learn what sorts of lines are easy to play fast with the picking motion that's (now) natural to me.

    My 2 cents....
     
  16. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    While many may believe or feel that that the 10,000 hour thing is just a slogan, a principle to follow, and maybe it is. I can't say that I have practiced anything for 10,000 hours but I can say the things that I practice everyday and have for a very long time, float in auto pilot on gigs.

    I was in VERY HI TECH sales for 20 years, I lost quite a few orders in the first few years Gradually as I gained more "real face to face " time,(HRS ON THE JOB) I lost less and less orders. I learned how to read and understand the clients which is totally different than trying to sell something . The year I retired I wasn't losing any orders !
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  17. suthol

    suthol Friend of Leo's

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    Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect and lots of it every day.

    As was said in so many ways in the posts above.

    Noodling in a box ain't taking you anywhere
     
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  18. EsquireBoy

    EsquireBoy Friend of Leo's

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    You cannot do without a lot of practice, but having a goal is key IMHO. What I mean is not only a practice program, but a general goal on top of everything.

    What are you really aiming for?
    « I want to be a better guitar player » is not enough IME, because what « better » means? It’s highly subjective and can mean many different things for different people.

    For instance, « I want to be a guitar player who is good at improvising » is a goal from which you can begin to work something out (a practicing program, the skills you need to master, etc.).

    That’s only my experience, but willing to just be good in general does not work so much because it’s too wide a goal to keep you focused.
     
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  19. dswo

    dswo Tele-Holic

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    For a book I’m writing, I did a lot of reading about the 10,000 hours.

    1. The 10k rule is based on less evidence than you’d think.
    2. It’s not a bad rule, if your goal is performing someone else’s music.
    3. It’s 10k of deliberate practice, guided by a skilled teacher.
    4. Even with their playing in Hamburg, the Beatles didn’t get to 10k before their first record.
    5. Stu played the same gigs as John, and never got any good on bass.

    That number is so large, I question its usefulness for amateurs. The advice offered above is more practical.
     
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  20. eddy b.

    eddy b. Tele-Meister

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    For my money the fastest to mastery in guitar is:
    A.Learn by ear the recordings of the person that you most want to play like.
    B. Perform in front of any/every audience you can summon. As often as possible.
    C. It will still take years.
     
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