The big WEAKNESS of MODELLING...

[aw73]

Although I agree a tube amp does not have to be "cranked" to sound good, I don't agree with the rest of your statement. Maybe you haven't heard an SS amp sound as good, but I believe I certainly have . To add to that, I NEVER play a stereo amp.... so I certainly don't need one to "come close".

ive heard alot and owned quite a few ss amps. even the new tonemasters that ive played in the store do not sound as good. they have a good tone but the stale/dull sound is still there. maybe some people dont notice or cant hear it but i can.

kinda like my wife when the "true motion is on", on the tv. i say "it makes it look like a soap opera" and she says "what are you talking about". for the life of me i cant figure out why she cant tell a difference.

 

[Blrfl]

ive heard alot and owned quite a few ss amps. even the new tonemasters that ive played in the store do not sound as good. they have a good tone but the stale/dull sound is still there. maybe some people dont notice or cant hear it but i can.

If you can hear it, can you quantify it?

 

[aw73]

quantify it?

if this means prove?...you could look up ss amp design and see why ss amps use more dampening and also see actual measurements proving what people hear.

 

[NoTeleBob]

ive heard alot and owned quite a few ss amps. even the new tonemasters that ive played in the store do not sound as good. they have a good tone but the stale/dull sound is still there. maybe some people dont notice or cant hear it but i can.

kinda like my wife when the "true motion is on", on the tv. i say "it makes it look like a soap opera" and she says "what are you talking about". for the life of me i cant figure out why she cant tell a difference.

I'm not a tube-sniffer, but you can most always hear a difference.

There are a few SS amps that manage to hit the clarity, presence,and ambiance of a clean tube amp. They are great for clean tones or for modeling platforms. But most SS amps are either a bit ragged, brash, muddy, or sterile. The chosen few are not DSP amps and all I know of are older.

For amp distortion, I've yet to find an SS amp that hits the spot. A few are OK at some levels. None are great and most are terrible. I'm not sure why SS amp makers can't seem to do what SS pedal makers can do with ease.

Noting that most of us use pedals or modelers in front of amps, tube amp distortion may not be an issue anymore. But, I do appreciate tube amp distortion - even if most are a one trick/brand pony when it comes to that.

But bottom line, with a decent modeler and a good amplification platform, tubes may be obsolete.

 

[bgmacaw]

 

[getbent]

I'm not a tube-sniffer, but you can most always hear a difference.

There are a few SS amps that manage to hit the clarity, presence,and ambiance of a clean tube amp. They are great for clean tones or for modeling platforms. But most SS amps are either a bit ragged, brash, muddy, or sterile. The chosen few are not DSP amps and all I know of are older.

For amp distortion, I've yet to find an SS amp that hits the spot. A few are OK at some levels. None are great and most are terrible. I'm not sure why SS amp makers can't seem to do what SS pedal makers can do with ease.

Noting that most of us use pedals or modelers in front of amps, tube amp distortion may not be an issue anymore. But, I do appreciate tube amp distortion - even if most are a one trick/brand pony when it comes to that.

But bottom line, with a decent modeler and a good amplification platform, tubes may be obsolete.

we did a 'listening test' a few years ago and the results were that folks cannot distinguish the difference at all. They mostly hear with their eyes. It is a bitter pill to swallow, but, it is actual.

 

[chris m.]

we did a 'listening test' a few years ago and the results were that folks cannot distinguish the difference at all. They mostly hear with their eyes. It is a bitter pill to swallow, but, it is actual.

Maybe guitar players hear with their fingers, too. Part of the difference is the way amps respond to your playing. Perhaps for guitar players a better test is listening while playing, not just listening. Make it a blind test, like they do sometimes on Anderton's YouTube videos, but let the player feel the responsiveness of the amp.

 

[aw73]

we did a 'listening test' a few years ago and the results were that folks cannot distinguish the difference at all. They mostly hear with their eyes. It is a bitter pill to swallow, but, it is actual.

they did this blind test on andertons too with the tonemaster and he picked the tube so yea it is a bitter pill to swallow.....

 

[PhredE]

LOL, it's almost 9 years old -- but still, a $40 box of 'cheap' SMD components in an [analog] emulator box vs an actual DRRI:
(The test scenario is not objectively scientific in the most stringent sense, but at least he makes a good faith effort..):



and




Apologies for the diversion, please continue on..

 

[Blrfl]

if this means prove?...

Think of this less as an attack on your viewpoint and more as an attempt to find out what you find deficient so it can be corrected.

 

[aw73]

Think of this less as an attack on your viewpoint and more as an attempt to find out what you find deficient so it can be corrected.

i didnt take it as an attack i just didnt know what you meant.

 

[aw73]

LOL, it's almost 9 years old -- but still, a $40 box of 'cheap' SMD components in an [analog] emulator box vs an actual DRRI:
(The test scenario is not objectively scientific in the most stringent sense, but at least he makes a good faith effort..):



and




Apologies for the diversion, please continue on..

i owned and sold that pedal so i think this is funny.

 

[Blrfl]

i didnt take it as an attack i just didnt know what you meant.

Good, so now that we've cleared that up, what does "stale" mean?

 

[getbent]

they did this blind test on andertons too with the tonemaster and he picked the tube so yea it is a bitter pill to swallow.....

we did the test with hundreds of people, nobody passed. everyone could not consistently distinguish between tube and non tube.

 

[aw73]

Good, so now that we've cleared that up, what does "stale" mean?

it means dry. almost like playing without reverb but not as drastic. less ambient.

the same will be said on audioholics forums about hifi amps. some also prefer tube amps for the same reasons.

 

[MilwMark]

Confirmation bias/Expectation bias are how we are wired.

I just don’t understand why that is such a challenging notion. Lake Woebegone wouldn’t even be a fun place to hang, would it?

 

[aw73]

we did a 'listening test'

hmmm....i guess i misunderstood.

 

[getbent]

hmmm....i guess i miss understood.

or misunderstood. I took the test too, but I did not create it.

 

[aw73]

yep

 

[Joe M]

Ok, a few of you need to rein it in. This thread has run it’s course.