The Arts Are Undervalued in Our Culture.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by ElJay370, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. PlainAllman

    PlainAllman Tele-Holic

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    I don’t think anyone on this website would argue that art doesn’t have value. The point is that value has to be qualified and or quantified just like any other product or service. The problem is that qualifying and quantifying art is extremely subjective. Theoretically every single person on the planet could have a different idea of what makes good art. This is especially true in today’s world as much as ever.
     
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  2. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    Or to put it another way; the mechanic's opinion about a set of brakes is a one-way conversation. But when it comes to what he charges for those brakes, that's when the customer gets the last word. Similarly, artists can talk about art, but the consumer establishes the value.
     
  3. old wrench

    old wrench Tele-Holic

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    Without the beauty and joy of the arts, we'd be living in a pretty poor world.

    Without competitive athletics, we'd have have lot's of cranky middle-aged couch potatoes with nothing to do on Sunday afternoon :).





    Best Regards,
    Geo.
     
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  4. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Or maybe those same middle aged couch potatoes would be out playing touch football with their buddies, resulting in being more fit, which might even cut healthcare costs that are boosted by too much snacks & beer and not enough exercise.

    Course that would still be competitive athletics.
    Way cheaper though...
     
  5. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    No, it’s set in a dialogue between the producer and the consumer. The producer won’t accept a price that’s too low, the consumer won’t accept a price that’s too high
     
  6. PlainAllman

    PlainAllman Tele-Holic

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    Tough crowd. I understand your point but those things really fall more under the technically experienced professional recommendation category don’t you think? I think art and music falls more under the beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder category. You could have a PhD in art or music but you'd still have a hard time convincing me to like a song that I can’t stand just because you’re an expert in music theory.
     
  7. tele12

    tele12 Friend of Leo's

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    Society absolutely does value the Arts. The vast majority of money is at the very top.
    If you get extremely lucky there is far more money in the arts than there is being a pipe fitter, welder or electrician.
    Justin Beiber is 24 years old and has a net worth of $265 million.

    On the lower end there is a large amount of competition for a limited amount of opportunity.
    Interestingly, I've known more people who have made their living as graphic designers ,musicians and artists than I have electricians and welders (never met a pipe fitter, but I do know a woman who made her living as a dance instructor ).
     
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  8. Plumber

    Plumber Tele-Holic

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    I certainly look forward to that but I fear being 54 and a man probably stack the odds against me
     
  9. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    This was exactly my frame of mind when I started out in the 60s. Early on, I saw the absolute squalor that some musicians' families lived in. (google earth: richland wye washington to see the cleaned up version). It would break my heart not to be able to pay for my child's necessities. I would travel and keep weird hours, and associate with dealers, pimps, muscle, and con men.

    While I lived the young man's idea of the life of a rock musician, in terms of girls and such, I was always really careful about not getting into any long-term commitments. And for you youngsters out there: don't knock anyone up unless it's part of your career plan. Having a kid will kill a music career fast.
     
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  10. SolidSteak

    SolidSteak Friend of Leo's

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    I am merely an amateur who could quit at anytime if I wanted to, but yeah, sometimes I wonder about songwriting, composing, and musicianship in general, whether it is a form of addiction. People who are artists are going to be that way whether they get paid or not. That is at the same time a little bit sad but also triumphant.
     
  11. magicfingers99

    magicfingers99 Friend of Leo's

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    its a burden of our gender, that women don't even consider. Hang in their you might get knocked up yet, keep tryin!!!
     
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  12. magicfingers99

    magicfingers99 Friend of Leo's

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    addiction is the most abused word in our current vocabulary, its a noun,its a verb, its hip, its despised.

    food is addicting, sex is addicting. love is addicting. guitars are addicting. narcotics are addicting. guess which statement is true..

    words have meaning, or did before the internet.

    sorry to be pedantic...
     
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  13. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The consumer has the last word though.

    Otherwise, the producer has his price that he likes and doesn’t think is too low, but he also still has his item/commodity/work of art.
     
  14. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

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    I would say that if the producer sells it for a price that profits him, the seller has had "the last word." If he doesn't he still has an object of some value to sell.

    It's common to argue that the consumer is in the driver's seat, the consumer is in charge, etc. This is partly an idea designed to conceal the fact that you, the consumer, inevitably paid more for the object than it cost to produce it!
     
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  15. SolidSteak

    SolidSteak Friend of Leo's

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    It's fine, I've been a pedant before too. At least we can both admit it!
     
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  16. Speedfish

    Speedfish Tele-Meister

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    There was a thread the other day about how whether or not a 4 year college degree is really necessary in order to make a good living. Many suggested learning a trade instead. While the world does need pipefitters, welders and electricians, I think most of us here would also agree that the world also needs authors, graphic artists, and musicians. College is where you would generally go if you wanted to learn how to do any of these things well. The trouble is, the chances of you being anything other than functionally poor should you decide to engage in any of these pursuits is near zero, so the ROI of a degree in them is marginal at best. We've all heard the jokes and cliches about the "starving artist", but it's unfortunately true that unless you get extremely lucky there is no money in music or the arts. Most of us know this. Anyone who's played in a band for any length of time knows this. So consequently, most parents tend to discourage their children from pursuing a career in them. Myself included. My 12 year old loves to draw, sing, dance, and play the piano. She is immensely talented. But I know that unless she wants to work at Starbucks and starve for most of her life, she's going to have get a "real job". Which to me generally means settling for something you have very little interest in, but provides you with the means to feed and clothe yourself. Part of me wants her to follow her creative passions and be fulfilled, but another part of me hopes she doesn't. Because I want her to be able to live comfortably and avoid a life of financial hardship and struggle. I hate that our culture forces me to feel this way.

    I believe that there's a definite social prejudice towards artists and musicians. I think most people tend to view what they do as little more than a pleasant distraction. Nobody has a problem if you want to spend your evenings and weekends playing your little songs or doing your weird little drawings, but tell them you want to do it for a living and they'll look at you like you're insane. Our culture kills an artist's drive to create because artists aren't encouraged or respected. The popular attitude is that unless you're producing value for someone else by working 12 or 14 hours a day and coming home dirty and exhausted, it's not "real work".

    A beautiful painting, an engrossing story, the perfect 3 minute rock and roll song.....these are the things that make life worth living, yet we've set up a system where those who would have the desire to create them are discouraged at every turn by the need to survive within that system.



    I agree with you. However, the first time that I went to college I first studied Music, then Studio Arts, then finally graduated with a degree in Media Arts.

    Useless degree.

    I went back to college in my late twenties/early thirties and got degrees in Nursing. It has served me well. Provided well for me , my family, and allowed me to pursue my passion in art and music which I otherwise probably wouldn't have been able to financially enjoy alone as an artist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  17. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Friend of Leo's

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    Profit. That's called profit.

    Are you saying that a Van Gogh is only worth the paint and canvas? Or are you saying his work should be valued differently than that of an auto mechanics and doctors? That profit is unseemly unless it is an artist who is profiting?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  18. PlainAllman

    PlainAllman Tele-Holic

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    I’m willing to save you from the unnecessary suffering of profit. Why don’t you sell me all of your guitars for what they cost to produce?
     
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  19. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    My FIL is a poet, lives most of the time in Ireland where poetry and poets are more valued than in the US.

    He chose nursing to be able to afford to raise a family, but later was able to move into teaching including the previously maligned in this thread "artist in residency" jobs.
    He is hitting retirement and worried about financial security, I suppose because the arts are under valued.

    He made better money as an RN than as a poet that schools would house and pay because they charged premium tuition and needed to provide "top professionals" in creative writing for their creative writing programs.

    Of course in poetry, the term "top professional" is both a joke and a contradiction in terms.
    "Professional" means paid for your work AFAIK.
    Poets seldom if ever get what would be considered "top professional" pay in the US.

    Why is that?
    Do they do the equivalent of brake jobs that don't stop the car?
    Or is the work of the artist simply under valued in many societies?

    Ireland seems to greatly value their poets (and storytellers), giving them celebrity status in the nation/ community.
    Not sure what the money amounts to, but AFAIK no Irish poet laureate has to work 24 hour weekend nursing shifts to afford food and shelter for the family.
     
  20. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Ultimately and meaninglessly, American consumers prefer to pay $400 for a Squier that cost $40 to produce, and then spend time on the internet hating on boutique one man builders that charge $3500 for a guitar that cost $3000 (by professional wage standards) to produce.

    Actually most boutique guitars production cost would be far higher if the boutique builder charged the rates of an auto mechanic doing a brake job.
    $85/ hr for that brake job amounts to $170k a year.
    How many small builders are making $170k a year making $3500 guitars?
     
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