The Arts Are Undervalued in Our Culture.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by ElJay370, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,387
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Graphic artists have awesome new tech for their work!

    OTOH Stan Lee could probably have whipped up a great logo in ten minutes...
    (OK maybe not by his own hand, not sure about that)

    I can draw and as a kid it was one of my celebrated talents.
    I actually worked professionally in 3rd to 5th grade.
    I could draw any custom motorcycle or car, put a Honda 750 engine in a Norton frame or a Hemi in a VW, whatever you wanted I could do it for a dollar. These were more technical than cartoonish, not like the hot rod graphic styles of the times.
    I also did some posters and event tickets.
    One of the posters was actually a bear and put me off the graphic work.
    That was for a school play I was in, and a dumb one at that.
    The tech part was on clear plastic to become a silkscreen IIRC, and it stopped being fun about ten hours before it was done.
     
    Mase likes this.
  2. Frank'n'censed

    Frank'n'censed Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    11,800
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    Not necessarily in Western culture, (Europe), but generally within Canada & the States
     
  3. PlainAllman

    PlainAllman Tele-Meister

    Age:
    44
    Posts:
    488
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2019
    Location:
    Van Zandt Co, Texas
    You know what they say about opinions.
     
  4. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,387
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I relate to your feelings here but I have found that there are communities in which non wealthy patrons buy and collect the art of non famous but devoted hard working artists.
    I was fortunate to have grown up in such a community, and when I moved to other geographic areas I chose them based on community appreciation of and support for the arts.

    Similar to choosing to live in places where I could play loud guitar rather than living where it was not accepted and supported, then getting upset with those who prefer the sound of their TV sets.
    NYC has been about my favorite for getting the whole enchilada, place to play music, place that supports the arts, place where culture and money coexist without too much hate ruining it.
    Been a while and the city has supposedly been "cleaned up", which may have ruined it...

    At the same time we can look at an artist like Eric Dolphy, one of the important pioneers of a distinctly American art form, who felt he had to choose to go to Europe to find strong enough patronage for his work.
    Many Americans may not quite see that Jazz was not really supported as well as history suggests, by the country in which it was born.

    Jazz bands during the biggest heyday of Jazz, commonly were not allowed to sleep indoors on tours, instead forced to sleep on the bus.
    Those musicians got standing ovations in packed houses but were not allowed to pee in the same rest room.
    I'm not super well read on the Eric Dolphy story, or on the conditions his peers enjoyed making world class art for a classist society in which they were first class artists but third class citizens.
    Reading history seems to show a bias by the well funded historians though!

    Anyhow, the US is often looked down upon as less classy and less intellectual/ artistic/ cultured.
    But many communities support vibrant art movements, and even the lower middle class art patrons collect art.

    We have our shames and our triumphs.

    An interesting bit of history was discovered when an old NYC couple either died or had to move out of their long term rent controlled (AKA subsidized) apartment. May have some incorrect details but they were a postal worker and a librarian.
    Turns out they had assembled the largest and most important minimalist art collection in the world, on a low income.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/...lerk-and-modern-art-collector-dies-at-89.html

    Vogel, is that maybe Dutch?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    Greggorios likes this.
  5. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

    Posts:
    16,181
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    When I was starting to get my music compositions performed as an undergrad, a music history on 20th century music had the inevitable discussion of how music composition is terribly under-appreciated. In response, the teacher said that there will always be composers like me and a couple of faculty composers. I was bowled over that he knew that, like the other composers, I would always compose no matter what, whatever the circumstances.

    Relatedly, Stravinsky once wrote that if a student is truly a composer, no advice he could give would be necessary. Such a student needs no praise and ignores all warnings about how difficult it is to be a composer. No encouragement or discouragement will make or break a composer.

    Money, praise, and acceptance are good, but not required, at least for me.
     
    SolidSteak, DekeDog and Greggorios like this.
  6. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

    Posts:
    16,181
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    I tell this story often, so apologies if you've heard this before. In the 1920s, the composer Roger Sessions sold one of his song to a music publisher. At the end of the year, he got a statement saying he sold one copy for 15 cents. But it was returned, so not only did he lose the sale, he also had to pay the publisher a 10 cent re-stocking fee.

    Composers have lots of these kinds of stories. We wear our scars with pride.
     
  7. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    4,148
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Arlington, VA

    I do. Somebody always posts it.

    Everybody has opinions, but of course they aren’t all the same. My car mechanic’s opinions about the state of a set of brakes are worth way more than mine. A guitar players opinion about the setup of a guitar is worth way more than the opinion of a guy who doesn’t play the guitar. The opinions of people with actual experience in the thing they opine about are worth way more than the opinions of people who have no experience. It’s kind of silly to suggest that all opinions are the same because everybody has opinions.
     
    ElJay370 and telemnemonics like this.
  8. rangercaster

    rangercaster Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,886
    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Location:
    portland, or
     
  9. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,698
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    Reminds me of the joke about guitarists being people who put $5,000 worth of equipment in a $500 car to drive 100 miles to go play a gig that pays $50.

    But, some things are objective while others are subjective. The mechanic says your brakes are shot but I tell you they're fine- one of us is objectively wrong (probably me since I'm not a mechanic). If I say Thomas Kinkade was a great artist and the Dean of the College Of Fine Arts says he wasn't... there's really no objective way to say which of us is right since the question is purely subjective.
     
    PlainAllman likes this.
  10. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,117
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Location:
    Hogtown,KY.
    The arts are important, but does anyone think that Hendrix, for example,
    woulda been a better guitarist if he had been given an instrument at a
    school program??? The fire of adversity & the overwhelming desire to
    play is what made him the musician that he ultimately became. :cool:
     
    JuneauMike likes this.
  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,387
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Very true, though of course very biased as well.
    Such an opinion might get you a punch in the nose were you to opine it in a bar full of sports stats spouting fans!

    I reckon society has always had large numbers of people who believe their opinion on stuff they know little or nothing about is more valid than those in that field whom they ridicule.

    The common statement that "they all stink" may be most telling of he or she who opines as such!

    Interestingly, to my observation, a lot of the art I find most compelling, attempts to reach those who cannot see much beyond the viewpoints indoctrinated into them in their youth.
    Being stuck for decades in a mindset from the home town has both good and bad points.

    As a teen I half wished I didn't have musical ambitions, because I knew they would lead me away from a more stable family and security oriented life. Family and security are good life values, yet they reject or subvert other values that conflict with family values.

    I have known many families who chose alternative lifestyles and child rearing styles.
    They were invariably gossiped about, condemned and ostracized by traditional families in their communities.
    Not all alternatives work out well too though, so there's that.
     
  12. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    4,148
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Arlington, VA

    I do. Read up—the guy had an intense interest in music as a young person. Are you seriously arguing that the key to producing great musicians is denying them access to music at a young age?
     
    telemnemonics and beyer160 like this.
  13. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,117
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Location:
    Hogtown,KY.
    Who's denying them anything??? Thanks to technology, they have 24 hr. access to more
    music than they can possibly digest. Back in the day, music seemed to matter more because
    quite frankly, live music was the norm & there were actually gigs to be had. Do you think
    that a free instrument is going to stoke a fire to play??? The youngsters i know, music doesn't
    rate very highly. Gaming seems far more important. :cool:
     
    JuneauMike likes this.
  14. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Posts:
    16,387
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
     
  15. PlainAllman

    PlainAllman Tele-Meister

    Age:
    44
    Posts:
    488
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2019
    Location:
    Van Zandt Co, Texas
    Do you look at everything subjectively only on purpose or do you not understand the difference? Do you really believe that great musicians are “produced”? Many people believe that some of the greatest musicians have come from “our culture”. How is that possible though since we undervalue the arts so much and only spend a fraction of the money spent by other countries? It’s a wonder there is any music or art coming out of our culture at all.
     
    Thinliner likes this.
  16. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    4,148
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    ??? I actually don't understand any of that. What do you mean by "look at everything subjectively? Difference between subjectively and what? Are you arguing that your post about Hendrix was objective? In what sense?

    Do I think Jimi Hendrix would have been a better guitar player if he'd had music education as a kid? Yes, I do. What's the alternative? to imagine that childhood deprivation is essential to greatness? Jimi Hendrix had no musical education, therefore we should have no school music programs? It makes no logical sense at all.
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  17. ravindave_3600

    ravindave_3600 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,771
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Location:
    Newly Indiana
    The artistic Renaissance in Florence, etc., came about because a certain group of people became rich and were willing to spend their money paying artists for their time and talents. We remember some of those artists, but 99.9% who became apprentices weren't special are entirely forgotten. Why should we expect the fate of aspiring American artists be any better?
     
    JuneauMike likes this.
  18. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    60
    Posts:
    4,148
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Arlington, VA

    I don't think anybody does expect the fate of aspiring American artists to be any better. But the people who apprenticed in the workshops of, say, Titian often made a living doing what they loved and often went on to some success as painters on their own. The fact that the arts had patrons suggests that the arts were highly valued.

    Speaking of Titian, Wikipedia says "At the age of about ten to twelve he and his brother Francesco (who perhaps followed later) were sent to an uncle in Venice to find an apprenticeship with a painter. The minor painter Sebastian Zuccato...arranged for the brothers to enter the studio of the elderly Gentile Bellini, from which they later transferred to that of his brother Giovanni Bellini.[11] At that time the Bellinis, especially Giovanni, were the leading artists in the city. There Titian found a group of young men about his own age, among them Giovanni Palma da Serinalta, Lorenzo Lotto, Sebastiano Luciani, and Giorgio da Castelfranco, nicknamed Giorgione. Francesco Vecellio, Titian's older brother, later became a painter of some note in Venice."

    So many of the dudes working in Bellini's workshop became painters of some note. I'm not sure your point is clear.
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  19. KC

    KC Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,823
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Missoula, Montana
    Lorenzo Lotto! Sublime weirdo of the Italian Renaissance!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Charlie Bernstein

    Charlie Bernstein Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    7,536
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Location:
    Augusta, Maine
    Both can lead to money. Neither guarantees it.

    It's one route, but it's not the only route.

    Arts and trades? People can make good money in a trade. And plenty of artists make decent livings.

    The age-old purpose of a liberal college education - that is, a bachelor's degree - isn't to make money, to become smart, or to find self-fulfillment. It's to become a whole person, a contributing member of society. Regardless of whether a student aims to be a violinist, engineer, lawyer, psychologist, architect, or historian, a liberal education helps a person know how to read a newspaper, understand a poem, marvel at a moon landing, vote, travel, and work with other people. In short, it helps a student become a well-rounded, critically-thinking adult.

    That's why high school guidance counselors steer students away from the arts. They know that if a student is really driven, the student will ignore the advice.

    Yup. Just like guidance counselors.

    Wow. Appalling! Crush that!

    You're forcing yourself to feel that way.

    There are all kinds of social prejudices. Most of us manage to live with someone's disapproval.

    I haven't found that.

    You're putting up barricades against an imaginary enemy. Encourage your daughter in whatever she loves. It's the best way to ensure that she grows up and figures out how to make her way. (Not your way. Her way.)
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.