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Tele Incognito Build

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by wadeeinkauf, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. ElectricNewbie

    ElectricNewbie TDPRI Member

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    I built a multi scale acoustic baritone. I'll see if I can dig up some pictures. I believe I went with 27"-29" scales. I wanted to be able to tune it all the way down to A. As for why those scales, I read about other baritones and guessed. Worked out pretty well. Sounds great. If I remember, the perpendicular fret was around 6. It wasn't a conscious choice. I drew up one scale on one side of the fret board, and one on the other and connected the lines. I drew a few by hand until I got one I liked the look of. Then when it came time to do the real guitar, I measured both scales by hand based off of the actual nut slot I ended up with.

    I'm not much of a player. I spend most of my time on the first few frets, and I found it difficult to play. My friends who play well thought it was fine. If I were doing another for myself, I would want to shift it a bit so the perpendicular fret was maybe at 3. But then I'd have to completely redo my bracing design. Not an issue with yours I'm guessing.

    As for advantages, it's mainly tone. I love that fat long string pushing out low notes. None of the the floppy loose string sounds you get when you tune down. Intonation wasn't better. Playability was neutral or worse. But it sure does look cool, though most people take a while to notice anything's up.

    Mike
     
  2. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Mike,
    Thanks for sharing, PLEASE do see if you can find the pictures. I built mine also mainly because I was curious and had never seen one. They look like someone who had a little too much to drink make it. It is cool! I did not know what to expect. I did think it might be difficult to get use to. Myself like most everyone I have heard from did not even notice the angled frets when playing. Only once in a while will it cause a missed note. Much like you, it is the tone of the base strings that I really like. It adds such a deep character to a chord melody or finger style of playing. I hope we hear from someone that plays rock and get their view on it. I am thinking no tone advantage since a lot of rock would be overdriven or go through shaping devices. Again thanks for your input.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  3. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Wood for your guitar project

    Probably like many of you on your first guitar build I looked around locally trying to find acceptable hardwood 1 and ¾ an inch thick. It is not easy to find. So I went online and found a company that sells one piece Ash blanks for $70 each so I bought two. The quality was as good as the wood on my 2007 Ash deluxe tele so I was OK with the price. It is still a crapshoot buying sight unseen. If you are building that special guitar and you know exactly what you want I think it is fine to pay a premium price. But if you are experimenting with a design or still perfecting your skills like me we need a cheaper solution. This assumes you, like me REALLY want a 1 3/4 thick body. If you go with a drop top design then the two pieces together must combine to be 1 ¾ .
    I am really sold on alder for the bottom half. It is lightweight and really easy to work with and not expensive. And Fender has been using it forever. If you can find a local source 4/4 (true one inch) you are in business. Home Depot (in my area) and at least one lumber yard in my area stock ¾ (really ¾ inch) maple, mahogany, walnut, cherry (lumber yard only) (poplar, alder, oak as well). The great thing is you can buy it by the foot, you do not have to buy a whole 8 foot board as you do for most lumber. If you cannot get the 4/4 alder or poplar try this. What my local lumber yard calls one inch lumber in this furniture grade lumber is actually 13/16. It is finished very well so won’t require much sanding so you will get the full 13/16 in your finished piece. In my case I want my drop top to be around ¾ of an inch because I put a ½ carve in it. ¾ is 12/16 so the 13/16 in stock lumber would work OK for my drop top. Get one piece of 13/16 Alder and one 13/16 of maple or cherry and you’ve got 1 5/8 thick piece. You are only 1/8 shy of the 1 ¾ we would prefer. I have read that at least some Squier Affinity Strats are 1 5/8.
    By the way, the maple stocked (in my area anyway) is all hard maple. Same as that used for the fender necks. Some of the necks blanks I have ordered were ¾ of an inch….the size if you are going to add a fretboard. For $35 I got a piece of 7 inch wide maple from Home Depot big enough to make 6 necks. I needed it too as I screwed up the first three made. I think, like me, you will find it is important to keep the weight down on the guitars we make. A guitar made of solid maple, or cherry is heavy. The drop top approach also lets us do some chambering if we want. On my current build I am using the maple from Home Depot. I looked through all their 7 inch wide boards (at two local stores) and found one with a fair amount of quilting. We will see how it turns out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  4. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Drop Top cutout and sanded to line

    2014-06-29 11.09.23.jpg

    2014-06-29 14.02.03.jpg

    Leveled the drop top slab and then cut it out and sanded to line.
    Will now work on the neck. The last time I ordered pickups from Wilde it took 3 weeks for them to arrive. I have heard this from others as well. I also ordered one Q filter from Wilde. I will have to wait for the pickups to arrive. Then I can make my templates for the pickup cavities. I will also make a "pocket" to hold the Q filter. Actually, i will make two pockets in case I decide to use an addition Q filter for the bridge humbucker.
     
  5. Deegatron

    Deegatron Tele-Meister

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    Sorry for taking so long to chime in Wade.
    I never did get your PM...
    Had a baby. danm little guy is consuming my life... dont have time to build guitars anymore... hopefully that'll change soon.
    Either way.
    I've built 2 multiscales.
    First was a basswood with figured cedar top, paduok neck with maple fretboard.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Chose 25.5"/24.375" scale lengths. 10th fret perp.
    built mostly as a prototype.
    I was looking for better tension on the Low E / less tension on the High E. i dont really feel that scale length noticably effects tone all that much... you'll have better luck getting the right tone with correct pickup selection. I was after the feel, not the tone.
    Either way, i learned alot from that build.
    One thing that i never thought about. the angle nut makes the neck feel wider at the nut than it actually is so keep that in mind...
    Unforutnately i wasnt happy with the finished product on this one... I'll likely end up scrapping her and scavanging all of the hardware/pickup to build another prototype... apparently i bit off more than i could chew moving from strait scale to multiscale.

    either way, my 2nd attempt was much better... see my 2014 build challenge entry... danm thing is a tone monster... but also a back breaker...
    http://www.tdpri.com/forum/2014-bui...79-completed-deegatron-presents-b00m-stk.html
    perhaps there is something to the whole tone debate after all?!?!!?
    either way, i kept scale/perp fret the same on that one... next time i'll likely do something with a bit more fan... 26" to 24.75 or so... even 24.5 on the high e...
     
  6. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

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    I like super glue too, epoxy or zpoxy works as well. I only add saw dust if I am fixing a tearout or looking for a transparent finish.
    It's good to remember sometimes the the ones with the longer set times work great for deep surface voids but will run through a void/crack/worm hole if it goes through the piece.

    Great conversation on the multi scale neck very informative.

    Congrats Deeg, you'll get back to it after a few months. My son is a year and a half.

    It's looking good, I dig the shape.
     
  7. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Deegatron,
    Congratulations on the new baby! Wonder what the world will look like when he/she is my age? My wife and I adore Canada. When the politics don’t go to suit me here I tell my friends I can’t wait for global warming. Then Canada will warm enough for me to be able to survive there!
    I was just now looking at your build thread again. It is surprising how intense the build challenge can be especially if you are doing a build “outside the box” You are doing R&D on the fly. Your challenge really came out well. And you are right, that thing has BIG FAT tones. That wood you used seems to sustain all day. Thanks for sharing. Please check back when you can with your suggestions.
     
  8. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Super Glue

    I was actually surprised how much super glue is used with many of the builders here. In the past I never had much luck with using it around the house. For the guitar build I bought the brand from StewMac. I bought the 10,20,30 and so far have only used the 10. It is VERY slow to cure and I have been looking for the accelerator. Will get some on my next order if I can't find it locally. I am still learning where it works best. I tried using it on a nut and that did not work very well. Probably did not have a tight enough fit. Re-glued with wood glue and that worked well. I did get some clear epoxy and will use that if the cracks are large enough. You are right the 10 super glue will go all the way through the crack and make a good seal throughout.
     
  9. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Neck

    2014-06-30 13.06.53.jpg 2014-06-30 15.27.56.jpg

    2014-06-30 16.36.49.jpg 2014-06-30 16.44.26.jpg
    I cut out and routed the neck then taped my neck blueprint on the headstock in order to locate the peg holes. Getting these holes perfectly aligned has been a real problem for me. The way that works for me is to first drill a 1/8 hole then seat the 11/16 into this hole and clamp the neck down and then drill. I am actually using a 21/64 bit as there is a bit of wobble in these larger bits that I have. I have another piece of maple under the neck as I drill and this makes for a nice clean hole with no tear out.
     
  10. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Size Headstock Cut channel for Truss Rod

    2014-07-01 15.16.01.jpg 2014-07-01 15.16.20.jpg
    Sized the headstock. After doing some research I have found that the maximum on a Fender is .6 inches. Not that it matters but the thicker headstock I have read comes out of the custom shop. They use different equipment. I want to keep as much mass on the neck as possible. On my last build I ended up at .63 and had no problems with the Gotoh SG38LC tuners I use. I am at .62 now so after sanding and the finish will probably end up here. I can definitely tell the difference between my fat neck fenders and my skinny neck fenders. My 2007 Tele Deluxe was my first U shaped neck. The sustain is noticeably better than my ’72 American Strat with a skinny neck. The bass seems fatter as well but that is subjective. Anyway my last build I copied the deluxe neck as much as possible and really like it. I will set this neck around .87 inches thick at the first fret and pretty much keep it all the way down.


    2014-07-01 15.34.38.jpg

    2014-07-01 16.33.27.jpg

    2014-07-01 17.05.04.jpg
    Drew a center line and made a jig on the fly and routed the truss rod channel. I do not like this type of adjustment screw on the rod but that is what I had. I am still struggling with the truss rod. I am wondering if these bi-flex are really needed. I am thinking of learning how to use the single rod. Just have to learn how to do the 3 degree thing. This truss rod may look a little shorter than some. Actually it is because I have made the neck one inch longer than standard. We will see how that turns out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  11. Deegatron

    Deegatron Tele-Meister

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    If your not happy with the stew mac hot rod, have you tried the LMII double acting rods?
    https://www.lmii.com/products/mostl...neck-parts/truss-rod-double-action-welded-nut
    still double acting but they're smaller (only need a std 1/8" router bit)
    I've used them in all of my builds and have been super happy with them. they only come with the allan head on them but i've used them in fender style necks to great effect (see my build challange)
     
  12. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Great, I'll order a couple and give them a try. I really like dealing with LMII. They are here in California. I have ordered stuff from them in the morning and the very next morning it was delivered.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2014
  13. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Pickup placement The magic 24th fret

    Where should you place your pickups in your new guitar design. Well it turns out there is a very good reason why most of the fender models have less than 24 frets. Fender neck pickups are located where the 24th fret (second octave)would be. In a 24 fret guitar this cannot be done of course and many people think there is less richness (my word) of the tones captured by the neck pickup. It has to do with harmonics produced by the string at different locations.
    As I was researching this last night I came across this video. I was actually surprised to see the definition of the string vibration. I have some electronics training and have work with an oscilloscope quite a bit. This looks just like a scope trace.

    You can actually see how some waves seem to move down the string.
    Since I am after that “sweet spot”, that is the thing I like most about a telecaster is the sound of the neck pickup I will have to cut back my neck to insure I have the pickup under where the 24th fret would be. I may angle the pocket. AND this tells you what angle the pickup should be slanted at. The pole should be under where each strings 24th fret would be.
     
  14. Deegatron

    Deegatron Tele-Meister

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    my only beef with the theory above...
    if the 24th fret is the "sweet spot"
    and the 24th fret corrisponds to the 3/4 length between the bridge and nut
    Wouldnt the sweet spot change as soon as you fretted the instrument anywhere on the neck....
    for example... when playing any string on the first fret, the sweet spot would move back to the 3/4 point between the first fret and bridge...
    so essentially your shooting at a moving target that slowly moves back towwards the bridge as your fret higher on the instrument....
     
  15. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Deegatron,
    You are absolutely correct! I've been thinking about this last night and early this morning as I contemplate cutting a bit of my neck off...which I do not want to do because of the effective neck length playability issue. The fact that the 3/4 point (the 24th fret on an open string) changes when you fret a note shoots the hell out the argument that there is something special with this location. There is an argument that a 22 fret guitar or more specifically a guitar with the pickup located where the 24the fret would be as compared to a 24fret guitar where the neck pickup has to be further away from this spot has a more pleasing tone. Based on your point of the changing 3/4 point it is not logical that the difference is caused by the specific combination of nodes/harmonics/frequency components of a particular spot. One theory i saw was that it could be the simple fact that the pickup is located closer to the center of the strings. The mid point between the nut and the bridge. This mid point is the point of greatest vibration hence greatest energy produced. In general, on average the greatest "power" output of harmonics as well. When the string is fretted at the 12 fret the pickup would be under the exact mid point.
     
  16. jimdkc

    jimdkc Friend of Leo's

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    That's cool and all... but, most guitar players I'm aware of use the frets... they don't just play open strings! That "sweet spot" is only sweet when you are playing the string open!

    Edit: Oops... posted before I saw Deeg's post!
     
  17. Deegatron

    Deegatron Tele-Meister

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    honestly i dont think it has anything to do with the power from the strings.
    Yes there is more string vibration closer to the center point but this theoretically should effect volume only. I think it has more to do with the added bass output at that point in the string. bass waves take a little bit of distance to develop. stand right next to a bass amp and then stand 20 ft back... you'll hear more bass while standing further away...
    because your now reading the string further from the bridge the bass is able to develop more and therefore you get a fuller sound.
    I saw a thread on another forum where a guy wanted a neck pickup in a single pickup guitar... instead he setup a EQ pedal to simulate a neck pickup and claimed to get very similar results.
     
  18. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Mythbusters

    I feel like I'm on mythbusters. The below is said to be a representation of strat pickup placement in relation to Fundamental frequency and its harmonics.
    pickups_placement.jpg
    It may be that the 24th fret produces the "warmest tone" on the open strings. it is at this point where the 3rd octave line 4 on the chart is at zero power. This higher frequency harmonic would be absent at this point on the string. Maybe it is noticeable to the human ear I don't know. Would move when the string is fretted as pointed out anyway so not of much use as I now see it. In my case trying to make a jazz guitar I want the tone on this neck pickup to be as "warm" as possible. They call it warm, I would describe it as clean, rich, natural tone. The clean less bassy part may be more to do with a single coil pickup with relative fewer turns on the coil. Fewer turns more responsive to higher frequencies or less responsive to lower frequencies I am not sure which, results are the same. Anyway I want the pickup to be as close to the center of the string as possible. That center position will move toward the neck pickup as the strings are fretted until when fretted at the 12 fret it will be almost over the pickup if the pickup was placed anywhere near the 24 fret. We can look at a Les Paul and see the pickup is up against the end of the fretboard. Might be the reason why.

    I will leave my neck length where it is and put the pickup right up to the end of the fretboard.

    jimdkc and Deegatron thanks for pointing out my flawed thinking.
     
  19. wadeeinkauf

    wadeeinkauf Tele-Afflicted

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    Wilde Pickups arrive

    The two Wilde pickups and Q filter I ordered arrived. Not bad, only 14 days from my order date. In my opinion this is the best deal going.
    2014-07-04 10.41.04.jpg
    After my research on pickup location I will put the humbucker in the middle and the strat middle pickup in the bridge position. I will but the humbucker on the neck side of center. The way I will wire the puckups with 2 three way switches will allow me to have every combination of pickups. I have decided to us use two Q filters. I have the one new one and I have one I purchased from Bill Lawrence in 1981ish when I did some changes to my strat. I will also put in push pull tone controls in order to switch back to the standard cap configuration.
     
  20. Deegatron

    Deegatron Tele-Meister

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    have you considered using a 5 way "super switch"
    might be a little bit of a cleaner look....
    I used one + a push/pull on my chalenge build and it was really rewarding.
    got every theoretical combo under the sun... all in one neat switch.

    BE FORE WARNED!!! they are larger than a std 5 way switch and require an appropriate cavity. if your using a telecaster cover plate... it's retartedly difficult to get it in there without having the cavity below show past the cover... I wasnt able to sheild my cavity because the contacts on the switch are litterally pressed up against the side of the control cavity....

    I think dimarzio has wiring diagrams on their website for the 5 way superswich that can give you idea's for wiring or you can just make your own if your electically gifted...
     
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