Tele heel black marks??

allangracechurch

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Any thoughts on what these black marks could relate to? This body was attached to a 1967 neck. It had been refinished in Candy Apple red as I began stripping it I discovered first, a gold finish under the the red then a thick white primer then a veneer, under the veneer numerous bore holes indicating a bigsby and/or vibrola had been once attached to it plus a repaired neck pickup cavity and a repaired input socket. This body has seen a lot of wear if it could only talk!!


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skunqesh

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Howdy and welcome aboard!

I can't say much other than generally speaking those marks aren't unfamiliar to late 60s neck pockets.

Also - whatever you do - my 2c - do not alter, remove, deform, or deface or cover over those marks and ink stamps. Nor the paint-stick shadow.
they are just about the only thing left that gives the body any provenance or pedigree.
(nail holes, body contours, etc also help, but neck pockets and pickup routes are often very informative as to the origins).

More pictures would definitely be of interest, as well. this forum thrives on images.
Cheers!
 

allangracechurch

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Thank you here are some more pics - shows the various stages of work of removing the refinish to bare wood and highlighted dowel and what I think are bigsby and or vibrola drill holes which have been patched up as well as neck pickup area repair. Any thoughts on the type of wood will be welcome :)
 

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Sea Devil

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Those marks are consistent with a 1967-68 Tele. Leave 'em; skunqesh is correct that they're the last identifying characteristics on a much-altered body.

Veneer on the front?! That's just weird, especially with the careful fill of the humbucker cavity for the neck pickup.
 

Lochry

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My recollection is that fender usually sprayed candy apple red over gold or some other “metallic” finish. No idea whether yours was a factory finish, or a refin using the old recipe.

I have some great 50s and early 60s esquires, but the best teles I’ve played were from ‘66 and ‘67 - the “dreaded” CBS-era. You are lucky to have such a fine guitar. Enjoy!
 

derekwarner

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Alan......without introducing any negativity, I question if the body is of Fender manufacture?

Two points of question

1. Control plate cavity. the dimensional uniformity in machining of this cavity appears is not squarish [eleptical at the end closest the jack plug, and wavery along the sides]

These cavities as produced by Fender were machine hand routed, however through a steel routing template jig which produced the true equi-sided cavity profile, including each radiused end

2. Body. the instrument bodies from Broadcaster thru to Telecaster have a dimensional flatness in the vertical profile plane of the body, in that if the end of the body were traced, then replaced upside down....the new profile will line up with the original

Another way to describe is the end plane of the body is equally at 90 degrees to the axis of the arm

It certainly could be an optical illusion, however the images here suggest the end of the body is lobb-sided down by the control plate cavity end [far lesser, but to the same angularity relationship of a Fender Jaguar]

[The question of an optical illusion is acknowledged between 10_Ll.jpg, and 11_Ll[2].jpg ....this has me thrown?]

So my best guess is a poorish copy body of a partscaster

Derek
 
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allangracechurch

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Alan......without introducing any negativity, I question if the body is of Fender manufacture?

Two points of question

1. Control plate cavity. the dimensional uniformity in machining of this cavity appears is not squarish [eleptical at the end closest the jack plug, and wavery along the sides]

These cavities as produced by Fender were machine hand routed, however through a steel routing template jig which produced the true equi-sided cavity profile, including each radiused end

2. Body. the instrument bodies from Broadcaster thru to Telecaster have a dimensional flatness in the vertical profile plane of the body, in that if the end of the body were traced, then replaced upside down....the new profile will line up with the original

Another way to describe is the end plane of the body is equally at 90 degrees to the axis of the arm

It certainly could be an optical illusion, however the images here suggest the end of the body is lobb-sided down by the control plate cavity end [far lesser, but to the same angularity relationship of a Fender Jaguar]

[The question of an optical illusion is acknowledged between 10_Ll.jpg, and 11_Ll[2].jpg ....this has me thrown?]

So my best guess is a poorish copy body of a partscaster

Derek
Thank you for your observations
 

allangracechurch

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My recollection is that fender usually sprayed candy apple red over gold or some other “metallic” finish. No idea whether yours was a factory finish, or a refin using the old recipe.

I have some great 50s and early 60s esquires, but the best teles I’ve played were from ‘66 and ‘67 - the “dreaded” CBS-era. You are lucky to have such a fine guitar. Enjoy!
I was told that it had been refinished in Candy Apple Red by the last owner. Thank you I would agree with you that I am lucky to have this.
 

allangracechurch

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Those marks are consistent with a 1967-68 Tele. Leave 'em; skunqesh is correct that they're the last identifying characteristics on a much-altered body.

Veneer on the front?! That's just weird, especially with the careful fill of the humbucker cavity for the neck pickup.
Thanks, yes that veneer was weird
 

Sparky472

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Alan......without introducing any negativity, I question if the body is of Fender manufacture?

Two points of question

1. Control plate cavity. the dimensional uniformity in machining of this cavity appears is not squarish [eleptical at the end closest the jack plug, and wavery along the sides]

These cavities as produced by Fender were machine hand routed, however through a steel routing template jig which produced the true equi-sided cavity profile, including each radiused end

2. Body. the instrument bodies from Broadcaster thru to Telecaster have a dimensional flatness in the vertical profile plane of the body, in that if the end of the body were traced, then replaced upside down....the new profile will line up with the original

Another way to describe is the end plane of the body is equally at 90 degrees to the axis of the arm

It certainly could be an optical illusion, however the images here suggest the end of the body is lobb-sided down by the control plate cavity end [far lesser, but to the same angularity relationship of a Fender Jaguar]

[The question of an optical illusion is acknowledged between 10_Ll.jpg, and 11_Ll[2].jpg ....this has me thrown?]

So my best guess is a poorish copy body of a partscaster

Derek
I wonder if the weirdness with the control cavity is just the shape of the opening in the veneer being sloppy and not lining up. In the closer shot of the cavity compare the line of the end of the cavity at the top (veneer) to the bottom.

I see what you’re saying about the lopsided appearance. Could be the angle of the camera (likely phone camera with a wide angle lens) relative to the body? Would be good if OP could get a shot straight down and maybe a bit farther away to minimize distortion.
 

Telekarster

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Man.... for a mid/late 60's body that thing sure has had a lot done to it over the years! Geesh! I'll bet it will be a heck of a player though, when you're done with it!
 

allangracechurch

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Thanks to all of you who are contributing to this discussion. I have had doubts as to the authenticity of the body to the neck and other attachments being from 1967. At first I thought I was dealing with some sort 80s/90s copy when I came across the veneer but after removing the veneer I knew there had been a lot of work done to it or maybe it was a 1967 with a bigsby attachment. All in all the body has been through the wars as it were so here are more pics for you folks. Here is another picture of the control cavity as well as a close ups which I think (bear in mind I am just a player not a luthier) is a separate piece of wood. Its so small that I wonder if it really is original to the body??? Could it be a damaged body which has been rebuilt albeit crudely??
 

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Antoon

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Its so small that I wonder if it really is original to the body??? Could it be a damaged body which has been rebuilt albeit crudely??

I do not think so. I have a Tele body from the mid 60s and it also has these "strips" of wood on both edges (it is 5-piece in total!). The veneer was probably put on to prepare for a translucent refinish like sunburst. I am inclined to think that is was (is) a 60s Fender body.
 

skunqesh

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Thanks to all of you who are contributing to this discussion. I have had doubts as to the authenticity of the body to the neck and other attachments being from 1967. At first I thought I was dealing with some sort 80s/90s copy when I came across the veneer but after removing the veneer I knew there had been a lot of work done to it or maybe it was a 1967 with a bigsby attachment. All in all the body has been through the wars as it were so here are more pics for you folks. Here is another picture of the control cavity as well as a close ups which I think (bear in mind I am just a player not a luthier) is a separate piece of wood. Its so small that I wonder if it really is original to the body??? Could it be a damaged body which has been rebuilt albeit crudely??
I agree with Antoon - Fender bodies comprised of multiple joined sections were fairly typical by this time period.
That section you highlighted looks pretty good overall. How's the output jack hole look inside?
it'd be pretty tricky to rebuild that section and get a new bore lined up properly with the original.

Just curious - How thick is the body now, after finish and veneer removal?
 
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derekwarner

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Allan.....your latest 25.jpg image confirms the earlier concern about the optical illusion or visually distorted view

This latest image depicts a truly symmetric butt-end to the body, as per the standard Fender Telecaster profile & the control cavity is shown as pretty well symmetric.....amazing what a difference a true vertical image can show

As others have commented, Leo's [ongoing processes] didn't waste any slither of differing timbers, I believe 5 piece bodies were not uncommon

Derek
 
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allangracechurch

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Alan.....your latest 25.jpg image confirms the earlier concern about the optical illusion or visually distorted view

This latest image depicts a truly symmetric butt-end to the body, as per the standard Fender Telecaster profile & the control cavity is shown as pretty well symmetric.....amazing what a difference a true vertical image can show

As others have commented, Leo's [ongoing processes] didn't waste any slither of differing timbers, I believe 5 piece bodies were not uncommon

Derek
Thank you Derek
 

allangracechurch

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I agree with Antoon - Fender bodies comprised of multiple joined sections were fairly typical by this time period.
That section you highlighted looks pretty good overall. How's the output jack hole look inside?
it'd be pretty tricky to rebuild that section and get a new bore lined up properly with the original.

Just curious - How thick is the body now, after finish and veneer removal?
The body now thickness now measures 1 23 over 32 inches or 43.82mm
 

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