Taming the savage beast. Looking at speakers.

[Jakedog]

@Jakedog

You know more now than I will ever know about getting great live sound, and I'm just spitballing here but... Is there a way to attenuate after the speaker - like a sound diffuser in front or sound dampening panel behind the amp ( it's open backed, right?) ? I realize this may change the sound you love, but a speaker change might too...

Anyway, wish you the best with this - I'm sure you'll get it figured out...!

It’s funny you mention this. I did a gig with it last where the FOH guy said “can you turn it around?” I said I could, but it really wouldn’t make any difference. It’s about as loud out the back as it is the front. I turned it around for him though. He was shocked. Luckily sound guys understand speaker sensitivity. When I told him it was a 103 db speaker he got it. We ended up side washing it. I couldn’t hear it as well but the drummer loved it. The sound guy was actually laughing afterward. He said we should have left it where it was. Firing that cannon across the stage just made everyone else turn up. He couldn’t believe it was only 18 watts.

 

[Jakedog]

Speakers are so important and nothing seems to change an amp much more than the speaker.. I think the problem is the speaker's voice or tone is perfect for you. The odds of finding that exact tone in another lower Db speaker seem iffy.

-I too dislike attenuators.
-Does the Budda have huge trannies? A smaller PT or OT could get you there. But not likely something you want to mess with.
-Rectifier change? Can you go much lower and rebias without changing the tone too much?
-Volume pedals change the tone terribly to my ears.

-I have a bent plexiglass shield I rarely use that keeps the beam from the audiences ears. Not real fond of how it makes it sound to me on stage. I miss some of the "bite". I just heated it up with a heat gun and bent it on a table edge. It bent fine with nice big radius.
View attachment 1389471

I might try something like this. I looked them up online but they are prohibitively expensive. I’m wondering if there isn’t a much more affordable material that would work. I’m also very limited by room in my vehicle. I don’t drive a van or SUV anymore. So on gigs where I have to haul my rig plus the whole PA I don’t really have room for something like this unless it folds up flat.

 

[Jakedog]

I was going to post the same basic idea -- you beat me to it!


Yeah, try to find a similar speaker with as similar as curve as the existing one but a few db's lower. Other than tweaking the amp itself, I think that's the best option limited to the speaker itself.

Hint: Eminence (and other speaker manufacturers..) if you want to provide top notch customer service and have lots of happy customers researching your products, incorporate some ability to compare/visualize two response graphs of different speakers on your site. I have pondered this issue and envisioned a definite need for such functionality.
It could be done easily by computing the output (db) over the curve of two different speakers and showing the difference (< to keep it really simple at first). Even better, would be an ability to select a reference speaker and then compare against a set list of others to find which one of prospective resplacements matches closest overall.


I have high, low and mid efficiency speakers. I'll admit, I started out chasing quality over quantity. In the end, and if conditions permit, I'll use the low efficiency unit that sounds the best to me.

@Jakedog, If you do go 'downward' (in efficiency), just be sure that whatever power rating for the new unit is capable of dealing with the output of the amp when dialed up -- think efficiency downward, power rating upward -- to be safe. You also have have the residual benefit of turning things up and laying into hard but it will be able to take the punishment safely. At 18WRMS you should be fine, but I just throw it out if you beef up the output signal via pedals and related things.

Yeah, I do use boost and gain via pedals. But not a ton. I think I’d be fine with a 60-70 watter. I’m thinking of just sticking a V type or Creamback in it and calling it a day. It’s just kind of a dark amp so I don’t want to lose any highs. But I love celestion speakers, and have always been happy with them. There’s a G12H-30 locally for $100. There are V types everywhere for $50-$60 and I like those. I can probably find a creamback for $100 as well.

I wouldn’t mind trying a neo and dropping some weight, but the amp isn’t crazy as is. It’s only about 40 lbs.

 

[PhredE]

Yeah, I do use boost and gain via pedals. But not a ton. I think I’d be fine with a 60-70 watter. I’m thinking of just sticking a V type or Creamback in it and calling it a day. It’s just kind of a dark amp so I don’t want to lose any highs. But I love celestion speakers, and have always been happy with them. There’s a G12H-30 locally for $100. There are V types everywhere for $50-$60 and I like those. I can probably find a creamback for $100 as well.

I wouldn’t mind trying a neo and dropping some weight, but the amp isn’t crazy as is. It’s only about 40 lbs.

Sounds reasonable. I'll zip on over to the Celestion site and have an eyeball on what the curves look like for those. If they are vastly different, I'll post back here in a bit..

 

[ISmellSmoke]

It’s funny you mention this. I did a gig with it last where the FOH guy said “can you turn it around?” I said I could, but it really wouldn’t make any difference. It’s about as loud out the back as it is the front. I turned it around for him though. He was shocked. Luckily sound guys understand speaker sensitivity. When I told him it was a 103 db speaker he got it. We ended up side washing it. I couldn’t hear it as well but the drummer loved it. The sound guy was actually laughing afterward. He said we should have left it where it was. Firing that cannon across the stage just made everyone else turn up. He couldn’t believe it was only 18 watts.

Ha - it's funny you mention this because these are the two other things I was going to suggest - turning your amp (figured you already tried this) and having everyone else turn up (I'm trying to be less of a wise guy...)...!

 

[PhredE]

The V type appears to have a basic similar curve. Both have absolute peak about 2.5kHz, both have a dip between about 1.2kHz and 1.8kHz. The curve downward from about 1k all the way down to 80hz is roughly similar. The nominal efficiency rating is 98db.

Celestion V-Type - 12 inch 70W Guitar Speaker

Celestion V-Type - A sweet sounding guitar speaker with a superbly balanced tonal signature that imparts a vintage musicality to your tone.

celestion.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0270/8665/1462/files/Wizard.png

From a cursory glance, that appears to be a pretty good match.

 

[Jakedog]

The V type appears to have a basic similar curve. Both have absolute peak about 2.5kHz, both have a dip between about 1.2kHz and 1.8kHz. The curve downward from about 1k all the way down to 80hz is roughly similar. The nominal efficiency rating is 98db.

Celestion V-Type - 12 inch 70W Guitar Speaker

Celestion V-Type - A sweet sounding guitar speaker with a superbly balanced tonal signature that imparts a vintage musicality to your tone.

celestion.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0270/8665/1462/files/Wizard.png

From a cursory glance, that appears to be a pretty good match.

I already know I like them. And they’re cheap as chips compared to a lot of stuff. I think there will be one in my future. If I can grab a used one for short money I can always move it on if I don’t like it. I figure I’ll keep the factory speaker, and just pop it back in if I ever need to really blow the crap out of a large stage. A 5db drop should be pretty significant.

 

[schmee]

I might try something like this. I looked them up online but they are prohibitively expensive. I’m wondering if there isn’t a much more affordable material that would work. I’m also very limited by room in my vehicle. I don’t drive a van or SUV anymore. So on gigs where I have to haul my rig plus the whole PA I don’t really have room for something like this unless it folds up flat.

Amazon prices are good. I just used 1/8" or maybe 3/16". Its another piece to carry! I wanted the amp to show through the plexi

 

[schmee]

Amazon prices are good. I just used 1/8" or maybe 3/16". Its another piece to carry! I wanted the amp to show through the plexi

I might try something like this. I looked them up online but they are prohibitively expensive. I’m wondering if there isn’t a much more affordable material that would work. I’m also very limited by room in my vehicle. I don’t drive a van or SUV anymore. So on gigs where I have to haul my rig plus the whole PA I don’t really have room for something like this unless it folds up flat.

$20 3/16" thick 24 x 12. You only need to block the speaker width 12" size really. Or most of it even. Easier to carry too.
Hinged and Folding would be nice, more work though. There must be a way.

Amazon.com: 3/16" (0.177”) Clear Acrylic 24"x12" Plexiglass Sheet (5 mm) Thick Cast Sheet Nominal Size AZM … : Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: 3/16" (0.177”) Clear Acrylic 24"x12" Plexiglass Sheet (5 mm) Thick Cast Sheet Nominal Size AZM … : Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

You could get a folding display sign if they make them small enough. Maybe one out of that colored plastic cardboard like stuff. A frame.
sits in front of the amp instead of plexi with an edge under the amp.

Take a briefcase to the gig and set it in front of the amp, Blues Brothers style!

 

[elpico]

With the physical stuff it's easy to attenuate some highs and very hard to attenuate any lows, so that's why you don't see a big foam "earplug" you can stuff in the front of your speaker on the market. Would make it darker while still shaking the walls.

 

[JustABluesGuy]

They are no longer in production, but the Eminence Reignmaker is a British voiced adjustable efficiency speaker that has an range of 91.5 dB to 100 dB.

 

[Special Ed]

I’ve never used any attenuator that sounded good. They all added too much breakup. It always resulted in the amp sounding quieter, but more distorted, and kinda fake. A five or six db drop on the speaker efficiency should effectively cut the volume pretty dramatically without causing any unwanted breakup, at least in my mind. I’ve done it before, but I didn’t care if the speaker changed the sound of the amp. I’ve gone up or down in efficiency to gain or reduce volume. But I was also looking to do other things with the tone, so I wasn’t looking for a speaker that sounded super similar. It already has a killer master volume setup. It’s just an impossibly loud amp.

Have you tried the Tone King Ironman II? Your amp would work with the mini version. I can't say it's transparent because of the built in frequency correction but if all you need to do is knock off a few dbs of volume - it wouldn't be any more of a change than a different speaker. Mine doesn't add any distortion whatsoever to the output.

 

[Lawdawg]

Just spitballing here, but while you’re looking at new speakers I wonder if downsizing to a 10” might help a little. I do realize that there are lots of loud 10” speakers but I suspect you can probably find a greater selection of lower db rated 10” speakers. The trade off between 10 vs 12 seems to be that 10s tend to be a little more directional, but that could be useful for your needs.

Good luck finding a solution!

 

[hotcoffeenochill]

I’d always heard that the Wizard was a more efficient recreation of the Celestion G12H. Looks like those are around 3dB less than the Wizard. Might be worth looking in to.

 

[Jakedog]

They are no longer in production, but the Eminence Reignmaker is a British voiced adjustable efficiency speaker that has an range of 91.5 dB to 100 dB.

View attachment 1389545

I remember those. I remember hearing a lot of mixed reports, but I can’t remember if some people were displeased with the sound, the function, or both. I’d definitely try one if the price was right.

 

[Jakedog]

Just spitballing here, but while you’re looking at new speakers I wonder if downsizing to a 10” might help a little. I do realize that there are lots of loud 10” speakers but I suspect you can probably find a greater selection of lower db rated 10” speakers. The trade off between 10 vs 12 seems to be that 10s tend to be a little more directional, but that could be useful for your needs.

Good luck finding a solution!

That would be way too much work. And I don’t really wanna tear up this amp. It just turned 23 and it’s still basically like new.

 

[Jupiter]

What about a “beam blocker” kind of thing, but slightly bigger? Not big enough to stand on its own, but something the same diameter as the cone that you’d attach to the front of the amp.

 

[ahiddentableau]

Every time I read you talking about that amp it makes me want to play it.

If you want to drop 6dB or so, you could try greenbacks. They're usually listed at about 97dB @1k/1W, and they always sound good, but if the amp's volume problem is as large as you say that might not be enough.

But I think you should reconsider your view on attenuators. Clearly you've had bad experiences in the past, but there are modern designs that are extremely transparent. The JohnD design is the one I'm thinking of in particular. It lets you drop volume in 3dB increments and doesn't add breakup or anything else unless you change the amp settings. Or you could get a Fryette Power Station, which works differently (it's basically a reamping device). There are ways to attenuate without adding breakup, and that appears to be what you need here.

 

[FenderLover]

...Or you could get a Fryette Power Station....

I'd love to try one of these

 

[JustABluesGuy]

I remember those. I remember hearing a lot of mixed reports, but I can’t remember if some people were displeased with the sound, the function, or both. I’d definitely try one if the price was right.

The prices have gone up (like everything) since I got mine. I use mine a lot, but at lower volumes (the reason I bought it) and have never played it at gig volumes, so I can comment on it at high volumes. At the volumes I play at it sounds similar to my V Types which I also like a lot.

I do remember a couple of complaints that have been made.

The sound. When efficiency is changed that much there will be some change in the tone, though I haven’t noticed a big difference. Others might have noticed a bigger difference when playing at higher volumes though.

The function. The adjustment wheel does have a tendency to stick if turned too firmly to either extreme. I have experienced this a couple of times, but only when I at an extreme adjustment and when in a partially closed cabinet with sound holes so leverage was minimal. Another complaint was that it’s not as functional when in a closed back applications, obviously.

Anyway, I highly recommend it if you can get a good price. I have their American voiced Maverick as well.