Suicide PSA

[Matt Sarad]

Lost the father in law about 36 years ago.
It rips the family fabric apart.

 

[skunqesh]

People don't say anything before calling it a life because if they do it causes unwanted scrutiny into their daily existence that is already bad enough. More people riding your case digging into your business. How helpful. The counselors and support people may have good intentions but it's still just a paycheck at the end of the week. How many would care if they had to work shifts at Wal-Mart to afford being able to hear people's problems? Only those called.

And the the main solution the genius' have devised: drugs. Read: profit. Oj and of course some couch of someone who goes home to their own life at 5pm, often having problems as serious as the "patient". And if patient supplies their own drugs the patient gets the "oh he'.s/she's self medicating BAD BAD BAD" as though the pharmaceutical induced plastic smiles and head change somehow masking the problem is a fix yet people take them and still pull the trigger on life. Buy from lab coat=good. Buy from bandana=bad. The "treatments" add to the depression level because those people are depressing people.

Suicide prevention is good business especially the last couple years. It's the world around us as a root cause as well as a personal spiritual problem more than anything. Everyone has a cross in life they bear for some it is depression as a close, unwanted friend. Sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, the "too bad" rule is now in effect.

This is a whole load of seriously bad advice on so many levels.
so eyeahhh.. I'm calling out your "advice" - it's not personal, but this posting was a huge drop of NOPE.

you equate trained experts as only doing it for the money.
and mental health as something depressed folks should just suck-it-up or treat themselves.
yes, healthcare in this country is, imho, terribly broken.
No - people who train and educate themselves to help others aren't just doing it for the money.
I didn't get my roof done for free, I don't work/offer my services as a researcher for free - why shouldn't trained experts get paid?

and self medication all too often means running into serious complications - whether it's with regimen or detrimental drug interactions.

Just so much NOPE in that post, it should be embarassing.

 

[VonBonfire]

you equate trained experts as only doing it for the money.

I didn't. I suggested that if it were like music where you often need a day job to pursue your passion at night I don't think there would be as many involved. Not everyone with a degree in psychology and psychiatry is truly called. Like nursing, a lot of people are in it for the money and the benefits. By no means did I use blanket terms, so you're just misrepresenting what I said.

Just so much NOPE in that post, it should be embarassing.

You're entitled to your opinion. I've known half a dozen suicide cases so I have been plenty up close and personal with it, more than I would care to detail. It was in the water where I grew up. If suicide prevention worked, there would be fewer suicides. Take a look at any suicide rate chart. It has been on the rise for 20 years. So you're glowing vision of modern treatment methods hasn't proven successful. Maybe a rethinking is in order. Drugging people and putting them on a couch is of very limited effectiveness. In fact, for some, it is a distinct turnoff. Again, inviting scrutiny into their lives. Some, many, would prefer to remain silent about it.

My argument is that it is a growing problem with the world around us as well as an internal spiritual problem that is also systemic in nature. To deny this is turning a blind eye. Further, certain people bear the cross of depression and that will always be a reality for a small subset of individuals. I do not expect you to, or care, if you agree with me. That you would attempt to imply I should be embarrassed over a discussion says more about the way you perhaps treat others than it does my contrarian post. Be well.

 

[cyclopean]

I clicked on this thinking it was about the band.

 

[FenderGyrl]

I didn't. I suggested that if it were like music where you often need a day job to pursue your passion at night I don't think there would be as many involved. Not everyone with a degree in psychology and psychiatry is truly called. Like nursing, a lot of people are in it for the money and the benefits. By no means did I use blanket terms, so you're just misrepresenting what I said.


You're entitled to your opinion. I've known half a dozen suicide cases so I have been plenty up close and personal with it, more than I would care to detail. It was in the water where I grew up. If suicide prevention worked, there would be fewer suicides. Take a look at any suicide rate chart. It has been on the rise for 20 years. So you're glowing vision of modern treatment methods hasn't proven successful. Maybe a rethinking is in order. Drugging people and putting them on a couch is of very limited effectiveness. In fact, for some, it is a distinct turnoff. Again, inviting scrutiny into their lives. Some, many, would prefer to remain silent about it.

My argument is that it is a growing problem with the world around us as well as an internal spiritual problem that is also systemic in nature. To deny this is turning a blind eye. Further, certain people bear the cross of depression and that will always be a reality for a small subset of individuals. I do not expect you to, or care, if you agree with me. That you would attempt to imply I should be embarrassed over a discussion says more about the way you perhaps treat others than it does my contrarian post. Be well.

Yeah....
I can relate.
What works for some is just useless for others. You need to take control of your treatment. Easier said than done. I feel the meds just make some people less in control of the impulses. Which usually doesn't end well.

If meds and talking work for somone, then thats wonderful. For others... its the same as someone telling you to just smile and everything will be better.

 

[RodeoTex]

This is really a tough subject and all the help groups sometimes make it worse.
That was my experience anyway.

 

[teletail]

It won't stop until we remove the stigma from mental health issues.

 

[VonBonfire]

It won't stop until we remove the stigma from mental health issues.

Removing the stigma is an impossibility for society at large. The stigma when someone admits to thoughts of suicide has actually gotten worse in the last few decades. Many individuals themselves are now much more sympathetic towards people with thoughts of suicide but society itself, laws in particular, have become more antagonistic and threatening towards someone who is forthright about what they are going through. I think that contributes to the atmosphere of silence.

 

[FenderGyrl]

I'm glad to see good conversations going on. However, it's hard for me to continue reading this thread. I'll be taking my leave from the thread

Hang in there everybody.
Life is short, Just be kind.

Convince yourself that tomorrow could bring something to the table that makes you laugh inside.
Sometimes that's all ya need.

 

[telemnemonics]

I didn't. I suggested that if it were like music where you often need a day job to pursue your passion at night I don't think there would be as many involved. Not everyone with a degree in psychology and psychiatry is truly called. Like nursing, a lot of people are in it for the money and the benefits. By no means did I use blanket terms, so you're just misrepresenting what I said.


You're entitled to your opinion. I've known half a dozen suicide cases so I have been plenty up close and personal with it, more than I would care to detail. It was in the water where I grew up. If suicide prevention worked, there would be fewer suicides. Take a look at any suicide rate chart. It has been on the rise for 20 years. So you're glowing vision of modern treatment methods hasn't proven successful. Maybe a rethinking is in order. Drugging people and putting them on a couch is of very limited effectiveness. In fact, for some, it is a distinct turnoff. Again, inviting scrutiny into their lives. Some, many, would prefer to remain silent about it.

My argument is that it is a growing problem with the world around us as well as an internal spiritual problem that is also systemic in nature. To deny this is turning a blind eye. Further, certain people bear the cross of depression and that will always be a reality for a small subset of individuals. I do not expect you to, or care, if you agree with me. That you would attempt to imply I should be embarrassed over a discussion says more about the way you perhaps treat others than it does my contrarian post. Be well.

I agreed with many of your feelings, in your former post about the darker side of mental health care.

But I also would never say those things to anyone close to death from mental health problems.
And I've had the opportunity with easily more than 100 people.
I always encourage mentally ill and/ or suicidal individuals to seek medical care but from the best facility they have access to, preferably a hospital rather than a little one person country psych doc. Then to consider what they are told and to ask questions about any treatments side effects, success rate, how new it is etc.

So maybe rather than tell sick people not to see a doctor;
Help and support the mentally ill potentially suicidal friend in their process of seeking medical care for their deadly illness.
Be a good listener if they talk to you about their treatment.

But to condemn the mental health care professionals and meds?
Speaking with great authority as if you have better answers?
Even suggesting that mentally ill people are just as well off using street drugs to manage their mental health problems?

That kind of talk, telling sick people that the medical care that could help them is bad?
Do you really belive telling suicidal people they should not seek medical care and might as well just use recreational street drugs, will help them?

Back to your feelings that I also have, as you said, many can go toba psych doc and off themselves anyhow in a day or a week or a year.
Humans sometimes face an illness that will try to kill them 24 hours a day for their entire lives.
Since you know some of these folks you know that they typically suck at self care.
Expecting a mentally ill person to provide the good self care it takes to self administer meds regularly, get enough sleep, build new healthy habits, stop old sick behaviors, eat well and associate with positive people?

If they dont do all those things you cant really blame the psych doc or the meds.
And the sad fact that psych meds are not predictable from one patient to the next, so five depressed patients wont all respond well to the same med?

With all these challenges the mental health challenged individual faces, they need support and encouragement from friends and family.
Not to ve told they should not seek mental health care, not that psych meds suck, and not that street drugs are a viable option.

 

[telemnemonics]

This is a whole load of seriously bad advice on so many levels.
so eyeahhh.. I'm calling out your "advice" - it's not personal, but this posting was a huge drop of NOPE.

you equate trained experts as only doing it for the money.
and mental health as something depressed folks should just suck-it-up or treat themselves.
yes, healthcare in this country is, imho, terribly broken.
No - people who train and educate themselves to help others aren't just doing it for the money.
I didn't get my roof done for free, I don't work/offer my services as a researcher for free - why shouldn't trained experts get paid?

and self medication all too often means running into serious complications - whether it's with regimen or detrimental drug interactions.

Just so much NOPE in that post, it should be embarassing.

I agree with your take on the advice portions.
I gave a "like" for the feeling portions because I've struggled with my own, my family's, and many many friends mental health issues for long enough to go to lots of funerals as well as walk a good number of people into psych care including at times getting them pink slipped forbtheir own safety.

Depressing as hell and if watching a loved one struggle, its easy to blame the medical professionals and modalities for not conveniently forcing good health onto the sick person.

I have also at times been angry at a doctor for putting a patient on a med that the patient respinded poorly to.

CANT THE DOCTORS JUST FIX EVERYONE?????

Nope.
Every kind of hospital has refrigerators because patients die, sometimes young.

On any given day I might have three to six friends who may not survive until tomorrow, because of mental health problems including addictions to street drugs and/ or alcohol.

Because 24 years ago I sought medical care for my addiction which was related to self medicating a mixed bag of ADHD, depression, and attempted suicide.
Sucked, but saved my life...

 

[aging_rocker]

A friend of mine did it just over a week ago.

It's not the first time I've known someone who reached the point where it obviously made sense to them.

Did I see it coming? Of course not, not this time or in previous situations. Hindsight gives some small indicators, but nothing that would indicate problems of this magnitude.

In my (limited) experience, they hide it well. I'm not talking about the 'attention seekers' who make multiple unsuccessful 'attempts', but those who do it once, properly, often without much warning, even in hindsight.

Watching the devastation and pain of friends and family trying to process the loss, the guilt and the pain is painful. That's where I'm at, at the moment.

I have no answers or insight, it just sucks.

 

[burntfrijoles]

A few subtle signs:
Selling or discarding possessions, photos, pets
Lack of interest in usual activities
Lack of communication, reduced numbers of calls, texts, etc or shorter conversations during normal interaction

I am not a therapist but I lost a sister to suicide.

It’s always okay to ask “is everything okay” or “is anything bothering you”.

 

[WilburBufferson]

It’s always okay to ask “is everything okay” or “is anything bothering you”.

I think this is a great idea, but would "up" it to make an assertion rather than ask a question. For example: "I think you are feeling bad/are in a dark place, maybe the darkest?" "One day at a time." "You just need to survive today, we'll deal with tomorrow, tomorrow."

This is for the people who hide it well -- it is very easy for them to say, "Yes, I'm fine," or "I'm good," to avoid stigma or conversations that can have the opposite effect of emphasizing how badly the person is feeling.

What is the difference? The second approach shifts the onus off of the depressed person to take a step, to the friend who is telling them: "I have got this, I am with you. I am standing with you, you are not alone." Suicidal people are drowning right in front of us. We need to save them, not ask them if they want to be saved. Or in this analogy, to ask them whether they are drowning?

Let me just say that I'm not criticizing burntfrijoles at all because it is sound advice. What I am saying is that we need to up the ante on this issue for all of our brothers and sisters out there. Severe depression has become more prevalent. Like heart disease, it is a hidden killer.

 

[burntfrijoles]

Severe depression has become more prevalent. Like heart disease, it is a hidden killer.

This is true on both counts. It's a different world out there. Internet bullies, isolation from the pandemic, etc. Secondly, depression is a malignant disease (as are most mental illnesses).

 

[telemnemonics]

A few subtle signs:
Selling or discarding possessions, photos, pets
Lack of interest in usual activities
Lack of communication, reduced numbers of calls, texts, etc or shorter conversations during normal interaction

I am not a therapist but I lost a sister to suicide.

It’s always okay to ask “is everything okay” or “is anything bothering you”.

Getting rid of stuff, good point.
Robert Quine was a "friend" to whatever degree a guy who never smiles can be a friend.
He was staying off dope (and his ex band mate Ivan Julian was clean too and the amp tech at a shop where I was the guitar tech. ivan never smiled either), and anyhow I ended up getting hooked on heroin then didnt see much of Quine.
Typical dope habit I sold or pawned all my gear for that expense, and sold my records to the same shop Quine oddly sold all his records to, then offed himself.

Its like he had more concern for his vinyl than for his own life.
But Im familiar with the feeling that every breath of every hour is mental torture that just wears you down day after day until living is too great a burden to carry any longer.
Robert stayed at it for nine months after his wife passed.
I remember his presence in a room was just dark, even as he did attempt to at least hang out with people.
And I knew him early 90s but he did the deed in 2004, so a lot of years carrying pretty intense internal pain.

Of course many put on a good show trying to appear happy, so there is no single sign to look for.
But it does seem like getting ones affairs in order by moving life long treasures on to the next steward is notable.

A fair number of friends or associates were told by folks to stop taking those "happy pills" meaning psych meds, then did so and promptly offed themselves.

 

[telemnemonics]

I think this is a great idea, but would "up" it to make an assertion rather than ask a question. For example: "I think you are feeling bad/are in a dark place, maybe the darkest?" "One day at a time." "You just need to survive today, we'll deal with tomorrow, tomorrow."

This is for the people who hide it well -- it is very easy for them to say, "Yes, I'm fine," or "I'm good," to avoid stigma or conversations that can have the opposite effect of emphasizing how badly the person is feeling.

What is the difference? The second approach shifts the onus off of the depressed person to take a step, to the friend who is telling them: "I have got this, I am with you. I am standing with you, you are not alone." Suicidal people are drowning right in front of us. We need to save them, not ask them if they want to be saved. Or in this analogy, to ask them whether they are drowning?

Let me just say that I'm not criticizing burntfrijoles at all because it is sound advice. What I am saying is that we need to up the ante on this issue for all of our brothers and sisters out there. Severe depression has become more prevalent. Like heart disease, it is a hidden killer.

Sadly, some of what Ive observed is that the individual cannot do daily life responsibilities at the same time as getting stabilized on new meds.
In many cases the individual chooses death over startup side effects.
Startup side effects commonly pass but it may take a month of going to work shaking and dropping things while worse anxiety makes it hard to hold a conversation.

These individuals may need to be in a locked psych ward for as many weeks as it takes to get stabilized.

BUT, they commonly refuse to be admitted.
Some even attempt suicide over and over thennget sent home because if the clinician asks "are you suicidal right now?" and the patient says no, they get sent home in the same condition that drove them to attempt suicide.

Either they have to say "I am going to kill myself today", or we have to convince the admitting staff that the patient is a danger to themselves.
If neither of those two things come into play, they can attempt suicide every week until they succeed.

A friend trying to get an individual admitted will often be challenged and even insulted by admitting staff, because thats just how it works, mostly because insurance would have to pay the $40-$80k bill to keep the patient in a locked psych ward for a month until meds got worked out and unbearable startup side effects pass.
Before hauling a friend or family member to an ER in a hospital with a psych ward, one needs to do a lot of preparation including talking through the process with a psych professional who is sympathetic to the SNAFU you face.

 

[wrathfuldeity]

Sadly, some of what Ive observed is that the individual cannot do daily life responsibilities at the same time as getting stabilized on new meds.
In many cases the individual chooses death over startup side effects.
Startup side effects commonly pass but it may take a month of going to work shaking and dropping things while worse anxiety makes it hard to hold a conversation.

These individuals may need to be in a locked psych ward for as many weeks as it takes to get stabilized.

BUT, they commonly refuse to be admitted.
Some even attempt suicide over and over thennget sent home because if the clinician asks "are you suicidal right now?" and the patient says no, they get sent home in the same condition that drove them to attempt suicide.

Either they have to say "I am going to kill myself today", or we have to convince the admitting staff that the patient is a danger to themselves.
If neither of those two things come into play, they can attempt suicide every week until they succeed.

A friend trying to get an individual admitted will often be challenged and even insulted by admitting staff, because thats just how it works, mostly because insurance would have to pay the $40-$80k bill to keep the patient in a locked psych ward for a month until meds got worked out and unbearable startup side effects pass.
Before hauling a friend or family member to an ER in a hospital with a psych ward, one needs to do a lot of preparation including talking through the process with a psych professional who is sympathetic to the SNAFU you face.

This is so true! Having been a home plate umpire in the game for 25 years. Have done workshops, presentations and consults for family on how to navigate this process. In one perspective the evaluation process is occurs in a black box. It is a fluid nightmare and there are truly very few folks that really know how this game is played, what are the liabilities and pressures of the players.

Few folks have the ability or perspective to listen to a person struggling and wrestling with their existential question. Often their response has a ring of logic and coherence in response to a "crazy situation." What they need is help to figure out something better to do...because what they have been doing, is not working.

 

[Wrighty]

My Wife and I attended a Funeral yesterday for a Young man of 23 Years.
He was the Grandson of some friends of ours.
5 Years ago he Joined the National Guard and seemed to have found a Home.
He did quite well. Several missions overseas, he was the spitting image of his Father and IMHO, was a Fine young Man with a very bright future.
While with his Unit in Germany, he took his own Life.

We were in an Armory where people were over come with Grief.
Very few smiling faces.

My point, nobody saw it coming or, did they?
I'll not point fingers because most likely, those who knew him best didn't know what to look for.

We need to look out for each other.
We will all be better for it.

-ST

up late last year

My Wife and I attended a Funeral yesterday for a Young man of 23 Years.
He was the Grandson of some friends of ours.
5 Years ago he Joined the National Guard and seemed to have found a Home.
He did quite well. Several missions overseas, he was the spitting image of his Father and IMHO, was a Fine young Man with a very bright future.
While with his Unit in Germany, he took his own Life.

We were in an Armory where people were over come with Grief.
Very few smiling faces.

My point, nobody saw it coming or, did they?
I'll not point fingers because most likely, those who knew him best didn't know what to look for.

We need to look out for each other.
We will all be better for it.

-ST

Firstly, my thoughts are with all who knew that fine young man, serving his country.

I got up one morning late last year and opened the curtains to see the lane beyond the woods outback of the house full of police and ambulance vehicles with much activity around one of the bigger trees.
A young lad, 17, had hung himself. So very sad that he could see nothing in his future worth living for and ended his short life alone, hanging from a tree. The same questions will no doubt be asked, why did no one do anything, why did no one notice anything wrong?
I deliver medicines for a local pharmacy. Bottom of the skills pack where I work but I am in contact with a lot of patients, usually in their own homes. I’ve done several courses on how to spot depression and physical / mental abuse. More people should be made aware of the signs. Better that many suspected cases turn out to be invalid than real problems go unnoticed.

 

[loopfinding]

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