Substituting the ii chord.

[dlew919]

I’m working through pettingale and Alexander’s 'jazz bebop blues guitar'.

The thesis is you can get bebop lines out of blues progressions by substituting certain things, including the minor V argeggios over the I7 and IV7 and V7 chords. (Theres others, but that’s where I’m up to.). One of the points he makes is that it’s probably what Wes did - instead of complex modal scales, just play v7 arpeggios and scales over the top.

Obviously, it’s designed to move beyond blues.

So, in a ii V I progression, could you substitute the minor V over the i? Or it occurred to me that you might need to either substitute the minor I or the Major V? (All these subs include extensions, btw).
Anyway, hope this makes sense.

(I know about other ii subs.)

 

[klasaine]

What I think you're referring to is most of the time known as "minor conversion" or Dorian conversion.
You play the minor or Dorian scale a 5th up from a dominant 7th chord.
Ex; G7 = D dorian minor (DEFGABC). *You'll notice that D dorian has the same notes as G mixolydian or C ionian (major). It's just a different way of approaching it.
Wes definitely did this all the time. Pat Martino as well. It's a very common Be-bop technique or concept.

In your example for a ii V I you'd substitute dorian up a 5th over the V chord.

 

[NoTeleBob]

What I think you're referring to is most of the time known as "minor conversion" or Dorian conversion.
You play the minor or Dorian scale a 5th up from a dominant 7th chord.
Ex; G7 = D dorian minor (DEFGABC). *You'll notice that D dorian has the same notes as G mixolydian or C ionian (major). It's just a different way of approaching it.
Wes definitely did this all the time. Pat Martino as well. It's a very common Be-bop technique or concept.

In your example for a ii V I you'd substitute dorian up a 5th over the V chord.

Dumb this down a little more for me. I'm not a theory guy but I like to learn options and put new sounds in my brain.

In your G7 example, what three chords would we be playing here?

When you mention "play the minor or Dorian scale a 5th up from a dominant 7th chord", what scale would I be playing - and would I play that only over certain chords in the progression or would it apply over all of them?

 

[fakeocaster]

In your case of a ii V I that you mention, let’s assume your playing in C. The chords become Dm7 G7 Cmaj. in this case you treat the the first two chords as Dm7 . When you get to Cmaj you can play Cmaj ideas obviously or if you prefer Am or Em.You wouldn’t play the 5 minor there as this contains a Bb note which suggests C7 rather than C Major 7 which had a b natural

 

[SRHmusic]

In your example for a ii V I you'd substitute dorian up a 5th over the V chord.

Another way to look at it: Dorian up a 5th from the V is simply continuing to play the Dorian that goes with the ii chord. (The V of the V is the ii... e.g. A is the V of D which is the V of G).

(I'm by no means an expert on this, but here's my take. Some pros have agreed with me on this mental approach, for what that's worth.)

Personally I don't find it useful to think about switching modes when the key center or tonality (e.g. inside still) has not changed. It's far simpler, I think, to recognize the current key center and emphasize chord tones or other target tones over the current chord, e.g. with arpeggios and scale tones. (edit - or for the chord 'tonality' you're trying to imply, even if it's a different chord than what you're playing over, e.g. thinking of the iim7 over the V7.)

Example: Am and D7 are a ii-V in the key of G. Playing inside (diatonic to the key of G major) over these simply means choosing notes from the G major scale along with any additional color or chromatic tones. All the modes of G major have the same 7 notes and the same scale shapes/patterns. By emphasizing, say, the ii or V arpeggios and using other scale tones in between we 'automatically' are switching to or implying the modes associated with the ii chord (Dorian) and V (Mixolydian).

So this eliminates the need to constantly think about switching modes in diatonic passages. It's happening anyway, no need to expend focus or energy on it once you recognize how it works.

Now, there are songs or passages that specifically are emphasizing a particular mode. Identifying and mentally focusing on a particular mode and the notes that make it unique (e.g. the natural 6th in Dorian) is important in this case.

 

[klasaine]

Dumb this down a little more for me. I'm not a theory guy but I like to learn options and put new sounds in my brain.

In your G7 example, what three chords would we be playing here?

When you mention "play the minor or Dorian scale a 5th up from a dominant 7th chord", what scale would I be playing - and would I play that only over certain chords in the progression or would it apply over all of them?

The most basic/common example or application would be a ii V I progression: Dm7 G7 Cmaj.
Simple answer - you can use it over all 3 chords.

More in depth ...
This progression is all in the key of C major. All three of the chords contain notes from the C maj scale (the Ionian mode): CDEFGAB.
These notes, starting on D (DEFGABC) now become the Dorian mode (parent scale or key center is still C maj).
One of the things I like about at least being able to think this way is that if you play lines beginning and ending on D (or A) notes, you'll get a fairly 'jazzy' sound, especially over the V7 (G7) chord. As the OP mentions, it's very much a classic Wes Montgomery sound.

There are many way to approach improvisation over chord changes. .
Your ear.
Chord Tones.
Chord/Scale method.
Modally.

No player I've ever met does it just one way. It's all situational and conditional.

I personally love the 'sound' of superimposing the m7 up a 5th over dominant chords and vice versa.
Ex; play G7 licks/lines over a Dm7 chord.
For me, thinking about lines that are G focused. It's a cool, very fourthy sound. I love it so I focused on getting the 'conversion' to be instinctive for me.

 

[drmordo]

I’m working through pettingale and Alexander’s 'jazz bebop blues guitar'.

The thesis is you can get bebop lines out of blues progressions by substituting certain things, including the minor V argeggios over the I7 and IV7 and V7 chords. (Theres others, but that’s where I’m up to.). One of the points he makes is that it’s probably what Wes did - instead of complex modal scales, just play v7 arpeggios and scales over the top.

Obviously, it’s designed to move beyond blues.

So, in a ii V I progression, could you substitute the minor V over the i? Or it occurred to me that you might need to either substitute the minor I or the Major V? (All these subs include extensions, btw).
Anyway, hope this makes sense.

(I know about other ii subs.)

So, if you play a Gm7 arpeggio over a C7 you get C F G Bb D , or essentially a C11, which is a very hip chord to replace a 7th with IMO.

So, in a ii-V in F, over the Gm7 - C7 you could play that C F G Bb D for both chords. You would be insinuating Gm11 to C11. It's also the G minor pentatonic...

 

[BigDaddyLH]

In your case of a ii V I that you mention, let’s assume your playing in C. The chords become Dm7 G7 Cmaj. in this case you treat the the first two chords as Dm7 . When you get to Cmaj you can play Cmaj ideas obviously or if you prefer Am or Em.You wouldn’t play the 5 minor there as this contains a Bb note which suggests C7 rather than C Major 7 which had a b natural

If you are thinking Dm to CMaj it's easy to do a little side stepping and squeeze some Db7 in between. If you want to sound like a college boy, say "tritone sub"...

 

[Mowgli]

I'm confused as to why this would be "Bebop-ish."

Dm7, G7 (with no altered tones) and Cmaj7 when approached from an "inside" modal approach would all have the same notes if D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian (i.e. C major) scales are played. Those 7 notes would be DEFGABC.

One of the hallmarks of bebop are the altered (i.e. outside) notes most often played over the V7alt. chords before resolving to a chord tone on the I chord (usually the 3rd or the 5th chord tone; over Cmaj7 that would be E or G).

My guess is that I'm not understanding the question correctly or the book is just teaching minor arpeggios that could be played over the chords as drmordo above is discussing. This amounts to just learning the diatonic arpeggios and playing them appropriately over straight forward ii-V7-I progressions in order to add color to certain chords.

For example, playing a Fmaj7 arpeggio over the Dmin7 chord would give the ii chord a Dmin9th sound or playing an Emin7 arpeggio over the Cmaj7 chord would give the I chord a Cmaj9th sound. Perhaps this is what the author is trying to convey???

This is a little off the topic but worth mentioning for those interested in bebop: Hal Galper, the long time pianist for the late legendary bebop saxophonist, Phil Woods, used to have a regular column for Keyboard Magazine. In one article he discussed how it was helpful for all people trying to learn the bebop language to write out 8th-note solos to use over the V7alt chords and place the "altered notes" (outside notes) on the upbeats and chord tones (inside notes) on the downbeats so as to marry the "tension" of the outside notes with the "release" of the inside notes. This isn't a strict rule by any means but just a way to emphasize that one of the soloing goals of bebop was to create interesting lines employing tension and release (i.e. resolution) with the most significant release occuring over the I chord... and using this tension and release device helps to strengthen that effect.

 

[klasaine]

I'm confused as to why this would be "Bebop-ish."

One of the hallmarks of bebop are the altered (i.e. outside) notes most often played over the V7alt.

That's only one of the hallmarks of Bop. Another one is superimposing chord over chord.
The most basic being the example from the OP.

 

[drmordo]

I'm confused as to why this would be "Bebop-ish."

Dm7, G7 (with no altered tones) and Cmaj7 when approached from an "inside" modal approach would all have the same notes if D Dorian, G Mixolydian and C Ionian (i.e. C major) scales are played. Those 7 notes would be DEFGABC.

One of the hallmarks of bebop are the altered (i.e. outside) notes most often played over the V7alt. chords before resolving to a chord tone on the I chord (usually the 3rd or the 5th chord tone; over Cmaj7 that would be E or G).

My guess is that I'm not understanding the question correctly or the book is just teaching minor arpeggios that could be played over the chords as drmordo above is discussing. This amounts to just learning the diatonic arpeggios and playing them appropriately over straight forward ii-V7-I progressions in order to add color to certain chords.

For example, playing a Fmaj7 arpeggio over the Dmin7 chord would give the ii chord a Dmin9th sound or playing an Emin7 arpeggio over the Cmaj7 chord would give the I chord a Cmaj9th sound. Perhaps this is what the author is trying to convey???

This is a little off the topic but worth mentioning for those interested in bebop: Hal Galper, the long time pianist for the late legendary bebop saxophonist, Phil Woods, used to have a regular column for Keyboard Magazine. In one article he discussed how it was helpful for all people trying to learn the bebop language to write out 8th-note solos to use over the V7alt chords and place the "altered notes" (outside notes) on the upbeats and chord tones (inside notes) on the downbeats so as to marry the "tension" of the outside notes with the "release" of the inside notes. This isn't a strict rule by any means but just a way to emphasize that one of the soloing goals of bebop was to create interesting lines employing tension and release (i.e. resolution) with the most significant release occuring over the I chord... and using this tension and release device helps to strengthen that effect.

I thought about getting into that, but didn't have the energy.

Any talk about modes or standard applications of arpeggios has little to do with bebop.

Instead of playing a Gm7 over a C7, a bebopper would be more likely to play a Dbm arpeggio over that C7 because it insinuates a C7alt.

 

[dlew919]

I may have put it all badly. And while I’ve played bop I’m not really a bopper. But loving players like mike stern I was looking for a systematic approach. I love mikes book on the altered scale. But this approach (basic and simple no doubt) got me into the zone of what I hear in my head.

Thank you all for you help. I’ll be jamming with Julian lage in no time!

 

[klasaine]

Instead of playing a Gm7 over a C7, a bebopper would be more likely to play a Dbm arpeggio over that C7 because it insinuates a C7alt.

Db melodic minor as well as G mel min is the more standard choice for an altered C dom7 chord. And, this will depend on the type of alt. dom. chord.
C7#9#5 or b9#5 = Db mel min.
C9b5 or 13b5 = G mel min.
C7+5 chord = F mel min.
You can mix and match.
How that alt. V7 resolves can be a determining factor. Does it resolve to a Maj or Min 1 chord?
Does it even go to a 1 chord or is it static (as in a lot of post-bop stuff)?
It gets deep.

As one who has played, among other things, Bebop for decades (professionally), I can say unequivocally that we all do both, or all of it. As I noted in one of my previous posts, it's situational and conditional. And in fact, it is all totally dependent on what the rhythm section is doing at the moment. That, I can not overstate.

 

[loopfinding]

with the ii-V-I it really comes down to tension note (4th of the tonic) vs no tension note. you can really see the ii and the V as either, they both have the 4th. barry harris says it's all V, pat martino says it's all ii. they both have the 4th where the tonic does not.

the problem with the barry harris method for me is that it works for vanilla V, but altered scale type of V stuff doesn't really work over the ii, only lydian dominant stuff (essentially the melodic minor of the ii). ramming the V's vanilla 7th arps over the ii works for a dorian sound, but i'm so mentally conditioned to sticking in tensions over the V that it trips me up.

but ramming the ii's mode, scale, or arps over the V usually works well and is a classic sound for both. e.g. if you're in C major, working off of an F major triad for a min7 sound on the Dmin7, and an 11 sound on the G7 as @drmordo suggested. working from an F aug triad, that works as both a D melodic minor sound, and a G9b5 sound. for strong scalar patterns you could just play a D minor hexatonic (D-E-F-G-A-C, or D-E-F-G-A-B when you get to the V) on both. you only really have to negotiate what type of spicy stuff you want to stick on the V to resolve to the I. the rest is sort of autopilot.

as guitar players we are so used to thinking about minor pentatonic patterns, so focusing on the ii instead of the V (and using the associated approaches above) is a little more natural (to me, anyway). it's not a big shift from how we play over blues or rock from a LH/RH technique perspective.

going back to the blues....playing a G dorian or melodic minor over a C7 is playing a C mixolydian or lydian dominant, respectively. so C dorian/melodic minor over F7, and so on. wes does this on unit 7 - if you take some of the lines out of context, it almost sounds like he's playing a G minor blues.

 

[Mowgli]

Fun fact: Dizzy Gillespie didn't like the term "bebop" as the descriptor for the style of jazz music he, Bird, Bud Powell, Monk, Clarke, et al. created.

My old late friend, Tal Farlow, a more than fair bebop player himself, told me that, basically the above guys took the the old jazz/pop standards of the day and tweaked them harmonically, melodically and rhythmically into different tunes (and often played them at breakneck tempos, too). They would also create their own tunes, of course and wrote the music to be played with smaller ensembles; big bands were falling out of favor post-WWII and smaller combos were more appropriate for smaller venues.

In Tal's opinion and in the opinion of many at the time, Diz was the master musician of that initial group but Bird was the master player of it. Tal used to finish his gig with Margie Hyams at the Copacabana and then go over to the Three Deuces club, grab a beer and sit in the corner and listen to Diz and Bird blow into the morning.

I mention Tal, not to name drop but to relay that, to Tal's ear during those listening sessions at the 3 Deuces, Parker usually chose notes from the "major scale played up a half-step from the V7 over the V7 chord (one note separates this from the melodic minor scale played up a half-step from the V7 as was mentioned above - a common way to play the altered notes over the V7alt. chord).

To my ear, there's usually one note in the melodic minor scale when played this way over the dom7alt. chord that often sounds too dissonant over "major" ii - V7alt - I progressions, so I leave it out.

As for "minor ii-Vs" and its many variations I find those chord progressions love several minor scales/modes, a couple modes of the melodic minor scale as well as the melodic minor and harmonic minor themselves... and both the diminished and augmented arpeggios.

Consider this, too: Charlie Parker loved and respected modern classical music. He would practice it and intended on studying it... but he died before he got the chance according to Paul Desmond and others. <https://www.openculture.com/2016/10...e-parker-played-for-igor-stravinsky-1951.html> So Bebop's boundaries are not fixed by any means.

 

[ASATKat]

I’m working through pettingale and Alexander’s 'jazz bebop blues guitar'.

The thesis is you can get bebop lines out of blues progressions by substituting certain things, including the minor V argeggios over the I7 and IV7 and V7 chords. (Theres others, but that’s where I’m up to.). One of the points he makes is that it’s probably what Wes did - instead of complex modal scales, just play v7 arpeggios and scales over the top.

Obviously, it’s designed to move beyond blues.

So, in a ii V I progression, could you substitute the minor V over the i? Or it occurred to me that you might need to either substitute the minor I or the Major V? (All these subs include extensions, btw).
Anyway, hope this makes sense.

(I know about other ii subs.)

I don't see the blues as modal.

And in blues there is always the need to slightly flatten the 3rd and a few other tones ever so slightly to put that blues emo into it. Pure diatonic notes are boring in blues, micro bends give it the spice.

 

[ASATKat]

Fun fact: Dizzy Gillespie didn't like the term "bebop" as the descriptor for the style of jazz music he, Bird, Bud Powell, Monk, Clarke, et al. created.

My old late friend, Tal Farlow, a more than fair bebop player himself, told me that, basically the above guys took the the old jazz/pop standards of the day and tweaked them harmonically, melodically and rhythmically into different tunes (and often played them at breakneck tempos, too). They would also create their own tunes, of course and wrote the music to be played with smaller ensembles; big bands were falling out of favor post-WWII and smaller combos were more appropriate for smaller venues.

In Tal's opinion and in the opinion of many at the time, Diz was the master musician of that initial group but Bird was the master player of it. Tal used to finish his gig with Margie Hyams at the Copacabana and then go over to the Three Deuces club, grab a beer and sit in the corner and listen to Diz and Bird blow into the morning.

I mention Tal, not to name drop but to relay that, to Tal's ear during those listening sessions at the 3 Deuces, Parker usually chose notes from the "major scale played up a half-step from the V7 over the V7 chord (one note separates this from the melodic minor scale played up a half-step from the V7 as was mentioned above - a common way to play the altered notes over the V7alt. chord).

To my ear, there's usually one note in the melodic minor scale when played this way over the dom7alt. chord that often sounds too dissonant over "major" ii - V7alt - I progressions, so I leave it out.

As for "minor ii-Vs" and its many variations I find those chord progressions love several minor scales/modes, a couple modes of the melodic minor scale as well as the melodic minor and harmonic minor themselves... and both the diminished and augmented arpeggios.

Consider this, too: Charlie Parker loved and respected modern classical music. He would practice it and intended on studying it... but he died before he got the chance according to Paul Desmond and others. <https://www.openculture.com/2016/10...e-parker-played-for-igor-stravinsky-1951.html> So Bebop's boundaries are not fixed by any means.

Looking across the history of bebop up to today, I would say there are no boundaries.

 

[ASATKat]

No boundaries, maybe this new generation of players fit. Young Lyons, early 20s in London.
He was living in Santa Rosa Ca. around this time, where I also lived.

 

[Mowgli]

Looking across the history of bebop up to today, I would say there are no boundaries.

Many agree with you (including me) about playing minor and major 3rd notes and the blues. They are merely "fluid" accents when playing all kinds of blues!!!

Even on major key blues the minor 3rd employed strategically can be used to powerful effect.

A couple other quick examples in addition to those mentioned above:

(1) Enclosing the major third: The minor 3rd played after the 4th (+/- followed by the natural 7th -- "enclosing" the major 3rd) before playing the major 3rd followed by the natural 5th.

(2) When played over the IV chord (especially when part of a phrase involving the melodic minor scale based on the flatted 6th of the I chord) just seems to work so beautifully as a way of playing very "outside" before returning to the I chord from the IV chord. -- If you've never tried this, give it whirl... it will grow on you!

EDIT: Yes - Red Norvo (with Tal and Mingus) and Hank Garland!

 

[ASATKat]

Many agree with you (including me) about playing minor and major 3rd notes and the blues. They are merely "fluid" accents when playing all kinds of blues!!!

Even on major key blues the minor 3rd employed strategically can be used to powerful effect.

A couple other quick examples in addition to those mentioned above:

(1) Enclosing the major third: The minor 3rd played after the 4th (+/- followed by the natural 7th -- "enclosing" the major 3rd) before playing the major 3rd followed by the natural 5th.

(2) When played over the IV chord (especially when part of a phrase involving the melodic minor scale based on the flatted 6th of the I chord) just seems to work so beautifully as a way of playing very "outside" before returning to the I chord from the IV chord. -- If you've never tried this, give it whirl... it will grow on you!

EDIT: Yes - Red Norvo (with Tal and Mingus) and Hank Garland!

I pretty much know all that I just can't blaze with it =/
not like Julian, never. So I now play to me, my abilities. And I don't get on stage when blaze is expected. Had to deal with ego, shame (totally crashed and burned on Moments Notice in front of a hundred high schoolers, and feeling like a fool over it, tail between my legs, that was not a fun college day).
Leave it to the real gifted boppers. I found a way to play with happiness.