Did you try different speaker emulations?
Studio Monitors vs FRFR Speaker to Pair with Multi Effect Pedal
- Thread starter ktdcpa
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Did you try different speaker emulations?
I did, and they sounded good on the monitors, I just prefer the tone through the amp. The monitors were just missing the presence that an amp gives you. I think the monitors are possibly too directional. I'd hear a tone that I liked with them pointing directly at me, but my wife (who's a classically trained opera performer) would hear something completely different sitting 6 feet away. With the amp we always heard the same thing. They also couldn't quite capture the bottom end of the amp either. I really liked playing in stereo...that was a very cool experience.
For what it's worth I played the Zoom through both the FX loop and front input and liked all the tones better than the monitors. I do want to try a PA so I can test a 12" speaker...maybe this weekend.
LGOberean
Doctor of Teleocity
I have a BOSS ME-70 multi-effects pedal, which gives me different amp models, but the amp emulations never sounded quite right into any of my guitar amps. So when I put the ME-70 in front of one of my amps, I usually just turned off the COSM amp models and just used the Gain, EQ and Level settings in the Preamp section of the multi pedal.
Then about 8 months ago I got an Alto TS310 powered speaker, and now I run my BOSS ME-70 multi-effects pedal straight into it, with good results. I compared the TS310 to the HeadRush FRFR-112. Since 95% of the time I'd be using a powered speaker like a PA for just my voice and guitar, and the other 5% would be in a duo situation (2 voices + 2 guitars), I decided that I didn't need a 12" speaker, so I got the TS310 (10" speaker). With the exception of the speaker size, the features, frequency response and frequency range of the two powered speakers are virtually identical. The amp models on my ME-70 have never sounded better.
So the JBLs went back and I picked up a Headrush FRFR 112 for sale locally. Now I understand why folks with multi-effects pedals go this route.
The tone was completely new and sounded completely different than both my guitar amp and monitors. Basically, whatever the pedal put into the speaker the speaker reproduced with little to no extra color. It was really unbelievable how poorly the pedal sounded through the amp compared to the 112...especially when I thought it sounded ok to begin with. The clean tones have been especially eye opening. The string separation and sparkle the 112 provides makes the amp sound like it's underneath a blanket or something. Huge difference. I would almost liken the experience to listening to a song on a portable bluetooth speaker, then listening to the same song through really nice headphones. To be honest I sounded terrible playing with this setup. Every mistake, every chunked chord, and all sloppy technique were exposed.
One challenge I'm working through now is placement. I have hardwood floors and found the 112 to be a bit boomy/bloomy. Almost had a car audio sub sound to it...I think too much reflection off the hard surface. I'm going to experiment with raising it off the floor and possibly putting a rug underneath it. Fun experimenting...think I'm heading down the right path.
The tone was completely new and sounded completely different than both my guitar amp and monitors. Basically, whatever the pedal put into the speaker the speaker reproduced with little to no extra color. It was really unbelievable how poorly the pedal sounded through the amp compared to the 112...especially when I thought it sounded ok to begin with. The clean tones have been especially eye opening. The string separation and sparkle the 112 provides makes the amp sound like it's underneath a blanket or something. Huge difference. I would almost liken the experience to listening to a song on a portable bluetooth speaker, then listening to the same song through really nice headphones. To be honest I sounded terrible playing with this setup. Every mistake, every chunked chord, and all sloppy technique were exposed.
One challenge I'm working through now is placement. I have hardwood floors and found the 112 to be a bit boomy/bloomy. Almost had a car audio sub sound to it...I think too much reflection off the hard surface. I'm going to experiment with raising it off the floor and possibly putting a rug underneath it. Fun experimenting...think I'm heading down the right path.
DugT
Tele-Afflicted
Thanks for the info!
Does it sound good at low (Bedroom) volume? That is all I want out of powered speaker.
I've tried little amps with 10" speakers and they all sounded like small amps. My regular size amps with 12" speakers sound much bigger. Maybe the small box amps are to blame.
I can speak for the Headrush. It sounds great a low volume. Actually, it sounds the same at low volume as it does at high volume. There is zero change to the tone, it's just quieter or louder. I haven't tried headphones yet, I imagine they would sound the best, but I can get better low volume tone out of the Headrush than I can with my tube amp.
LGOberean
Doctor of Teleocity
Hmmm...I really didn't get the Alto powered speaker to do bedroom levels, but larger venues, outdoor gigs, etc. The TS310 has an integrated two-channel mixer, and I'll run a line out from the rear panel of one of my Vox Pathfinder 15Rs to one channel on the TS310 for electric, and an XLR out from the rear panel of my Fishman Loudbox Mini to the other channel on the TS310 for acoustic/electric guitar and vocals. I don't really gig with my BOSS ME-70 multi-fx. I use it at home, but during the day. I don't crank up to gig volume, but I wouldn't call it bedroom levels, either.
Because you asked about bedroom levels, I just tried it. My office/music room/man cave is right down the hall from our bedroom, where my wife is sleeping. I played several songs, using 3 different amp models. My wife didn't complain, so I guess I was playing at acceptable bedtime levels. It didn't sound quite as good to me at low volume, but that may just be my hearing. Not only are my ears 65 years old, but I have tinnitus pretty bad. It's worse in my left ear, a kind of high-pitched whining/hissing sound.
Oh, and as for "small box/little amps with 10" speakers," bear in mind that most guitar amps don't have both low and high frequency drivers, like the Alto and the HeadRush.
DugT
Tele-Afflicted
Thanks for the excellent replies.
By "bedroom levels" I meant playing solo at home at non-gig levels. To me that still means louder than I would play if someone was trying to sleep in the house so, based on your info, they easily pass that test. By the way, my ears are 68 years old and I have tinnitus in my left ear too.
Thanks for the info about monitors having tweeters. I don't know why that would cause them them to sound less boxy but I think tweeters would make them sound better if a backing track was played through them.
A pair of used Alto's are available near me and cheap on Craig's List. Is there much advantage to playing in stereo? Based on my playing rooms decor the speakers would end up being next to each other.
By "bedroom levels" I meant playing solo at home at non-gig levels. To me that still means louder than I would play if someone was trying to sleep in the house so, based on your info, they easily pass that test. By the way, my ears are 68 years old and I have tinnitus in my left ear too.
Thanks for the info about monitors having tweeters. I don't know why that would cause them them to sound less boxy but I think tweeters would make them sound better if a backing track was played through them.
A pair of used Alto's are available near me and cheap on Craig's List. Is there much advantage to playing in stereo? Based on my playing rooms decor the speakers would end up being next to each other.
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Hmmm...I really didn't get the Alto powered speaker to do bedroom levels, but larger venues, outdoor gigs, etc. The TS310 has an integrated two-channel mixer, and I'll run a line out from the rear panel of one of my Vox Pathfinder 15Rs to one channel on the TS310 for electric, and an XLR out from the rear panel of my Fishman Loudbox Mini to the other channel on the TS310 for acoustic/electric guitar and vocals. I don't really gig with my BOSS ME-70 multi-fx. I use it at home, but during the day. I don't crank up to gig volume, but I wouldn't call it bedroom levels, either.
Because you asked about bedroom levels, I just tried it. My office/music room/man cave is right down the hall from our bedroom, where my wife is sleeping. I played several songs, using 3 different amp models. My wife didn't complain, so I guess I was playing at acceptable bedtime levels. It didn't sound quite as good to me at low volume, but that may just be my hearing. Not only are my ears 65 years old, but I have tinnitus pretty bad. It's worse in my left ear, a kind of high-pitched whining/hissing sound.
Oh, and as for "small box/little amps with 10" speakers," bear in mind that most guitar amps don't have both low and high frequency drivers, like the Alto and the HeadRush.
For what it's worth the TS310 and Headrush appear to be identical. That's exactly what the back of my Headrush looks like.
For home use do you leave the speaker on the floor or raise it up a bit? Also, where do you set the volume? I currently have my volume set at 5, the master volume in my pedal set to about 50%, then use the guitar to further dial in the tone. Not sure if I should crank the speaker then lower the volume through the pedal...or if any of this matters at all.
ftbtx
Tele-Afflicted
I have the Line6 PowerCab Plus paired with my Helix floor, it really does feel like a real amp in the room as they say. I'm very happy with it.
littlebadboy
Tele-Afflicted
I think the Alto has a horn tweeter, the Headrush does not which I think why the Alto is not an FRFR.
LGOberean
Doctor of Teleocity
Well, it's probably the combination of factors that make things sound less "boxy," not the least of which would be personal tastes in that ever elusive pursuit of tone, as well as the frequncy range and response, and the two drivers in the Alto.
I don't know if you've already pulled the trigger on that Craig's List deal. I'd be tempted by it, probably, although I don't really need a pair of Alto TS310s. When I bought the TS310, I was of the mindset to start with just the one speaker and see how that would work. I figured that if I needed more firepower and/or better sound dispersion, I’d get a second TS310 and link them. So far, I haven’t needed it.
I do raise the speaker, both for gigs and home use. At gigs, it's on a speaker stand. At home, I use a wooden folding table. This table is what I set up beside me at gigs, for my water bottle, picks, capo, etc. At home, I just set the Alto TS310 on it, laying down on its side. That puts it 2 feet up off the floor. As for settings, at gigs it varies according to the venue, of course. At home for daytime playing, probably pretty close to what you described. For "bedtime" playing, significantly quieter.
BTW, this discussion thread has made me rethink my terminology. I've always read others talking about "bedroom" levels and figured it meant the same as what I think of, volume levels for when my wife is asleep at night. In both temperament and habit, my wife has always "wound down" at night, and gone to bed relatively early. Me, I've always been the hyper, night owl type. So our nightly ritual for decades has been what we call "trading rubs." It's not as sexy as it sounds (sometimes I wish it were
): she gives me a foot massage, and then I give her a 30 minute back rub. She's usually asleep, or nearly gone, before her time is up. I then get up and close myself into my man cave, and variously play guitar, check TDPRI, Facebook and/or YouTube. The volume levels I use for playing late at night are what I've previously thought of as "bedroom levels." Now I'm going to call it "bedtime levels."LBB, what you refer to as a "horn tweeter" in the TS310, Alto calls in the specs sheet an "HF [High Frequency] Driver." This driver is further described as a "1.4-inch (35 mm) neodymium magnet HF driver with precision waveguide." If you check the specs on the HeadRush web page for the FRFR-112, you'll see that their speaker has the exact same specs, the exact same wording to describe their high frequency driver.
And as ktdcpa observed, the HeadRush and the Alto appear to be identical. As I've said, mine is the TS310, which has the 10" LF [Low Frequency] Driver, but if you compare apples to apples, i.e., the HeadRush FRFR-112 to the Alto TS312, the specs are identical.
(link removed)
https://www.altoproaudio.com/products/ts312
So, to my mind, the presence of a high frequency driver, or "tweeter horn" doesn't disqualify the Alto from being FRFR, when it shares that same feature (as well as all the other specs) with the HeadRush. If there is some other reason why the Alto isn't while the HeadRush is, I'd like someone to explain it to me.
littlebadboy
Tele-Afflicted
Thank you for bringing it up. I'm not much of an electronic audio technical person and I'd like to also know, once and for all, if they are the same or not.
littlebadboy
Tele-Afflicted
I am not an electronics person, but this is what I have gathered so far:
The Headrush FRFR-112 is closer to FRFR than the TS312. For a modeler get the FRFR-112. For PA/DJ use get the TS312. The TS312 has a mic preamp that the FR112 does not. It may color the sound. The FRFR 112 is a full range/ flat freq response, ideal for monitoring and does not have any preamp built inside for microphone usage compare to the TS series from alto professional. Connecting a guitar to the TS3 speakers will give you an EQ curve that may be undesirable for modeling. The speakers of both has different response curves.
The Headrush FRFR-112 is closer to FRFR than the TS312. For a modeler get the FRFR-112. For PA/DJ use get the TS312. The TS312 has a mic preamp that the FR112 does not. It may color the sound. The FRFR 112 is a full range/ flat freq response, ideal for monitoring and does not have any preamp built inside for microphone usage compare to the TS series from alto professional. Connecting a guitar to the TS3 speakers will give you an EQ curve that may be undesirable for modeling. The speakers of both has different response curves.
LGOberean
Doctor of Teleocity
What is your source for these claims? I don't find what you stating here as fact anywhere on the Alto web page for the TS312. In comparing Alto TS312 to the HeadRush FRFR-112, I say again that the specs sheets for both are the same, the wording of the specs are almost 100% the same across the board. These speakers both have the exact same:
low frequency and high frequency drivers;
output power, whether measured in peak or RMS;
the same crossover;
the same SPL, peak or continuous;
the same frequency response;
the same frequency range;
the same horn coverage;
the same equalization;
the same connectors;
the same controls;
the same indicators;
the same protection;
the same AC voltage input;
the same enclosure, both in type and materials;
the same dimensions;
the same weight.
I find nothing on either the HeadRush or the Alto web pages about response curves. I find nothing on the Alto page about a mic preamp. And frankly, since the specs on the internal features and functions of both speakers are identical, wouldn't it follow that if one had this potentially offending mic preamp (for FRFR purposes, anyway), they both do? So far, I still don't see any reason to differentiate between the two in terms of FRFR.
And just for the record, I'm not trying to denigrate HeadRush products or dissuade others from buying one. Indeed, it looks to be the equal of the Alto, that I own and am very happy with, so I'm sure HeadRush makes good speakers.
I happened to start my search for a powered speaker with the Alto brand because others here on TDPRI (e.g., John, a.k.a., @studio1087 ) recommended them. So my search led to my purchase of the Alto TS310, and I'm a happy camper. And I do find that my BOSS ME-70 multi-effects pedal sounds better going direct into my TS310 than through any of my guitar amps. Good enough for the likes of me.
If my Alto TS310 isn't FRFR, it'll do until FRFR comes along.
DugT
Tele-Afflicted
They both list their frequency response and Frequency range specs:
Headrush FRFR 112:
Frequency Response: 53 Hz – 20 kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Frequency Range: 46 Hz – 22 kHz (-10 dB)
Altos TS310 (10" speaker and 2000W):
Frequency Response: 53 Hz – 20 kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Frequency Range: 46 Hz – 22 kHz (-10 dB)
Altos TS215 (15" speaker and 1100W)
Frequency Response - 50 - 20 kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Frequency Range - 43 Hz - 22 kHz (-10 dB)
These specs may or may not be very accurate but I would think an equalizer could tune in acceptable tone. If the goal was accuracy the FRFR would be best but the goal for real time guitar output is just good tone which is highly adjustable and highly subjective.
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littlebadboy
Tele-Afflicted
What is your source for these claims?
If my Alto TS310 isn't FRFR, it'll do until FRFR comes along.
Same here sir. I have been contemplating on whether to invest on one or not. I currently put my guitar combo amp aside and using a power amp + a Celestion PA speaker because my Boss GT-100 sounds better through it. It is the closest I could get to an FRFR.
With regards to the source... I came across this long discussion where, apparently, a forum member got in touch with inMusic, the parent company of both Headrush and Alto.
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LGOberean
Doctor of Teleocity
Okay, thanks for this. It does indeed look like a lengthy discussion (129 posts over the space of 9 months), so it'll take me some time to read through it, especially since I'm trying to multitask even as I'm writing this. But I'm grateful to have one new piece of information already, namely, the name of the parent company. Since the specs and even the wording of said specs were identical, right down to both the Alto and the HeadRush being "Designed and tuned in the USA," I figured they had to be related somehow.
