Stuck at 4/64 action!

[Waynel]

Evidentlly when Fender says 4/64 on string height above the 12th fret...it is set in STONE. I have been doing my own guitar repairs for years: install hardware, install and finish frets, re-radiusing fret boards, you name it. I have every tool Stewmac sells right down to that expensive jig. Said all that to demonstrate I'm not new at working on guitars.

I like my guitars (LP, Fender, etc.) at 3/64 on string action. I can not, repeat can not get my 2009 American Tele (individual saddles) adjusted to 3/64 without string/fret buzz (yes, can hear through amp). I have shimmed the back of the neck pocket...one shim, two shims, no shims. I have shimmed the whole pocket. I have straightened the neck, slightly bowed the neck...and finally...replaced the neck!

I bought a Warmoth compound radius replacement for Tele. It starts at 12 up to 18 on the frets near the neck. Flat neck up high, no buzz right? Wrong. The same problem as the stock Fender Tele neck. Buzz when fingering frets 5,6,7. Checked all the frets with a Stewmac tool...perfect...no rocking.

My conclusion is it must simple be the design of the Tele body or the saddle/bridge setup. Anyone have this problem? And no...the Dude can't abide buzzing through the amp. I love the sound of a Tele when we play Van Morrison, Stones...you know..."Tele" songs. But that 4/64 string height is like trying to break the speed of light, impossible.

 

[mechtech]

Frets are #1. But the bridge plate can cause buzzes. Like blob of ground wire underneath. Fan it out.

 

[twiggymac]

is it the 6 barrel saddles or strat style saddles? if it's the first the string could be buzzing against the spring. i highly suggest not to use that bridge, but if that isn't your problem i would check the bridge for buzzing and the nut for being cut incorrectly

 

[sacizob]

I have a question. Is the 4/64 rule at the 12th fret checked by pushing down on the string at the first and 17th fret or not pushing down.

 

[dblues]

This is why I don't measure.

 

[Starrman44]

I love 4/64. I measure action at the 17th fret without pressing anything down.

 

[kanegon]

Fender spec for vintage Strats and Tele radius is 4/64 on treb side and 5/64 on bass side at the 17th, with the relief set at .012 at the 8th fret. (use a B string in place of a feeler gauge) Took me years to "respect" those numbers, but it works like a charm to lower the action and eliminate buzz. How badly it buzzes depends on your touch, especially the bass strings since they're bigger but have less room to vibrate. Honestly, 3/64 for 7.5 inch radius is probably asking too much. I can barely pull those numbers off with a Gibson neck with 12" radius, let alone a Fender. Of course, the feel is sublime when it all comes together, but most Strats and Teles I've run into are a far cry from those numbers. Most people are afraid to mess with truss rod, which IMHO is the key to the setting the overall action. It defies logic how reducing the relief can reduce buzz, but that's how Leo designed it and it seems to work!

My StewMac action gauge is indispensable. No guessing or weird head trips about the action, you know what's there. Ever mess up a perfectly good setup because you thought or "felt" something wasn't right?

 

[Starrman44]

Fender spec for vintage Strats and Tele radius is 4/64 on treb side and 5/64 on bass side at the 17th, with the relief set at .009 at the 8th fret. (use a high E string in place of a feeler gauge) Took me years to "respect" those numbers, but it works like a charm to lower the action and eliminate buzz. How badly it buzzes depends on your touch, especially the bass strings since they're bigger but have less room to vibrate. Honestly, 3/64 for 7.5 inch radius is probably asking too much. I can barely pull those numbers off with a Gibson neck with 12" radius, let alone a Fender. Of course, the feel is sublime when it all comes together, but most Strats and Teles I've run into are a far cry from those numbers. Most people are afraid to mess with truss rod, which IMHO is the key to the setting the overall action. It defies logic how reducing the relief can reduce buzz, but that's how Leo designed it and it seems to work!

I use a feeler gauge and that's right about the relief I have dialed into the neck. My action on the Bass side is right about 4/64, maybe a hair above and then it's a hair under 4/64 on the treble side. From there, I adjust a tiny bit for feel. I like the high e string to feel just right when I go to grab it with my pinkie for a bend.

 

[Colt W. Knight]

Shimming the neck only changes the angle of the neck so that you can raise or lower the saddles. This is useful if the saddles sit too high, or if the saddles bottom out. It won't do you much good in fixing string buzz.

4/64 is pretty good action, and it is hard to get one lower than that unless you level and dress the frets nicely. I can get 3/64 on the teles and strats I setup if I level and dress the frets. I don't think I have ever been able to get a buzz free setup that low on a stock Fender guitar. Even with a really nice fret level/dress, I can't play a 3/64 action personally, because I am too heavy handed. I can check it with a light touch to make sure its buzz free for light handed folks, but when I actually play, I prefer 4-5/64ths.

 

[Colt W. Knight]

I have a question. Is the 4/64 rule at the 12th fret checked by pushing down on the string at the first and 17th fret or not pushing down.

Measure the action by not pressing down, and measuring from the top of the fret, to the bottom of the string.

You measure relief by pressing down on the 1st and 17th( or last fret), and measuring the gap between the bottom of the string and top of ~8th fret. Folks all do this a little different. I know I do it a little different than the Fender book.

Like others have said, you can get buzzing for the bridge as well. You can also get buzzing from loose tuners.

 

[trev333]

I've never measured my relief to that extent... I do it by eye/playing....

you know that fretted 3rd fret to nut trick to check the top action?..

well, I do that at the bridge end as well.. fret at 19 and check the air gap under the string at 21 and get them all even across the board with the saddle screws.. if it buzzes, wind up the saddle screws 1/2 turn each until it disappears.. ... that sets your bridge saddle curve as well, by default....

works for me...

I just checked the 2 teles I have in the room here, a US and a home built.... both are identical action wise... the thickness of the matchstick I used to check at fr17...

on the mic it's about 0.08"/ 2.05 mm..... very close to a fat 4/64.... feels about right for my playing....

I can get these guitars' action lower without buzz..... though I don't like dragging my fingers on the fretboard all the time and would rather play on the strings and be able to get under them a bit for bending, etc.......

I'm sure every guitar has it's own sweet spot, action wise....

 

[Colt W. Knight]

I've never measured my relief to that extent... I do it by eye/playing....

you know that fretted 3rd fret to nut trick to check the top action?..

well, I do that at the bridge end as well.. fret at 19 and check the air gap under the string at 21 and get them all even across the board with the saddle screws.. if it buzzes, wind up the saddle screws 1/2 turn each until it disappears.. ... that sets your bridge saddle curve as well, by default....

works for me...

I just checked the 2 teles I have in the room here, a US and a home built.... both are identical action wise... the thickness of the matchstick I used to check at fr17...

on the mic it's about 0.08"/ 2.05 mm..... very close to a fat 4/64.... feels about right for my playing....

I can get these guitars' action lower without buzz..... though I don't like dragging my fingers on the fretboard all the time and would rather play on the strings and be able to get under them a bit for bending, etc.......

I'm sure every guitar has it's own sweet spot, action wise....

I actually do my entire setup by eyeballing it an feel. I measure afterwards, just so I can show the customers or double check my work.

 

[KokoTele]

Are you filing some fall away into your higher frets?

 

[Jack FFR1846]

To follow on Koko's question.....

You want to do a LOT of measuring if it's not to your liking. What's the action at the 12th? What's it at the 17th? Keeping fall away in mind, you will want to be sure that the action isn't higher on the 12th than it is on the 17th. Right? If it is, you need to do something to be sure to fix that. A shim might do it. Maybe it's not as level as you think. I recently asked a similar question and it was suggested that the frets that I just leveled might not be as level as I thought. They were right. I crown with a triangle file and since the frets had vastly different amounts taken off during the level process, my crowning was not even. I releveled and recrowned, paying particular attention not to take the peaks down. That fixed it all and the guitar now plays great. I can now go to 2/64......which doesn't work for me. I like 4/64 at the 12th with a bit higher at the 17th. (part of personal preference) Mine is a 9.5" radius guitar.

 

[Brooks A Hood]

Shimming the neck only changes the angle of the neck so that you can raise or lower the saddles. This is useful if the saddles sit too high, or if the saddles bottom out. It won't do you much good in fixing string buzz.

This is not entirely accurate - IME. Although it is electric, the Tele is a guitar and the neck angle is very relevant just as it is in acoustic guitars. These small adjustments can mean the difference between effortless and just o.k. action.

Waynel - We need more info to get the whole picture. How much relief is there in the fingerboard in the middle vs. the edges ? First octave vs. the second ? "Fall away" when the neck is dead straight ? String heights over the 1st fret ? Pickup heights ? (and type) String manufacturer and type ? Is the buzzing you mention on all strings or just the wound three ? What is involved in getting to the action you want is very advanced fingerboard/fretwork and is not just your basic straight neck with 22 frets that are the same height.

And the Warmoth radius is too extreme - if you do the math, you will find that a fingerboard that starts at 10in. should be closer to 12 in. at the 22nd fret on a 25.5 in scale length. The flatter radius can result in setting the action too low resulting in buzzing -especially if you are measuring at the 17th and not the 12th where - IIRC- the Warmoth compound radius is closer to the 12in. radius.

 

[jbmando]

The premise of this thread is incorrect. From Fender's "Telecaster Setup Guide:"

ACTION

Players with a light touch can get away with lower action; others need higher action to avoid rattles. First, check tuning. Using a 6" (150 mm) ruler, measure the distance between bottom of strings and top of the 17th fret. Adjust bridge saddles to the height according to the chart, then re-tune. Experiment with the height until the desired sound and feel is achieved.

Neck Radius 	String Height Bass Side 	Treble Side
7.25"                         5/64" (2 mm)               4/64" (1.6 mm)
9.5" to 12"                   4/64" (1.6 mm)             4/64" (1.6 mm)
15" to 17"                    4/64" (1.6 mm)             3/64" (1.2 mm)

 

[Ricky D.]

... My conclusion is it must simple be the design of the Tele body or the saddle/bridge setup. Anyone have this problem? And no...the Dude can't abide buzzing through the amp. I love the sound of a Tele when we play Van Morrison, Stones...you know..."Tele" songs. But that 4/64 string height is like trying to break the speed of light, impossible.

C'mon, you know better. It's just geometry, each string vs. the frets beneath. Forget the radius, that only matters for string bending. Forget the neck angle, that only matters relative to the height of the saddles over the body. If the frets are level and the relief is right, the action can be set right. If the guitar was perfect, the action would be perfect. So there's something not right that hasn't been identified.

 

[Colt W. Knight]

This is not entirely accurate - IME. Although it is electric, the Tele is a guitar and the neck angle is very relevant just as it is in acoustic guitars. These small adjustments can mean the difference between effortless and just o.k. action.

This

C'mon, you know better. It's just geometry, each string vs. the frets beneath. Forget the radius, that only matters for string bending. Forget the neck angle, that only matters relative to the height of the saddles over the body. If the frets are level and the relief is right, the action can be set right. If the guitar was perfect, the action would be perfect. So there's something not right that hasn't been identified.

 

[Brooks A Hood]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooks A Hood
This is not entirely accurate - IME. Although it is electric, the Tele is a guitar and the neck angle is very relevant just as it is in acoustic guitars. These small adjustments can mean the difference between effortless and just o.k. action.
This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky D.
C'mon, you know better. It's just geometry, each string vs. the frets beneath. Forget the radius, that only matters for string bending. Forget the neck angle, that only matters relative to the height of the saddles over the body. If the frets are level and the relief is right, the action can be set right. If the guitar was perfect, the action would be perfect. So there's something not right that hasn't been identified.


Kinda answered it yourself. There is something that is not right - that means EVERYTHING is suspect until it has been eliminated. I have reapaired so many Fenders that have what I call a "reverse compound" radius for lack of a better term. The last one on Friday which was 9.5 in at the 22nd fret and 10in. at the nut. Doesn´t sound like alot but if you want ultra low action then thousandths of an in. is where we will find the problems. This will effect straight playing - not just bends - since you are playing "uphill" into the smaller radius this will show up from the 4th to 5th fret on up the fingerboard - sometimes even earlier. Having this manufacturing defect will ruin the chances of that guitar ever playing buzz free until it is refretted and the fingerboard is correctly radiused. The best examples of this are when the fingerboard is say 9.5 at the nut and 7.25 at the 22nd. I refretted an SRV neck that was exactly 9.5 (nut) to 7.25 (21st) (early 1989 manufacture - IIRC) not too long ago and the owner really thought he had to have stiff, unplayable action cause it was a strat. (That guitar is spec´d as having a 12in radius according to FMIC.) He was surprised when he got his guitar back to say the least. The other problem that happens often is that frets are over-radiused and not fully seated in the fingerboard. How about a 6-6.5 in. radius fret on a 7.25 in. radius fingerboard ? I have seen this many times - and some of this is just not apparent until you are refretting it. The Warmoth Compound radius is just as flawed because it will lead people to let set the action too low relative to the fret plane. That doesn´t even address if the neck is poorly made and doesn´t relieve/adjust properly over it´s length or width - again - far too common. The neck angle is just as important and when we are talking about getting the action as low as original poster wants it - then things really have to be dialled in.

It IS geometry . . . .

 

[Waynel]

Are you filing some fall away into your higher frets?

shouldn't be neccessary. The Warmoth neck starts at 12 radius frets one through five and then flattens to 14 on middle of neck then all the way to 18 around the 15th fret and up. That's why the compound radius is desgined that way, so the higher frets are flatter on the board.