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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by 3-Chord-Genius, Jun 15, 2019.
A little less confrontational than TGP, but overall about 98% the same.
I find this discussion fascinating. The fact that some people find the discussion fascinating and others just wonder why we are talking about this is as fascinating as the topic itself. I think I could get lost in a recursion here which is appropriate since we're talking about spring reverbs.
Anyway a buddy of mine and I kick stuff like this around all the time. Not "is A better than B" but why do we like A or B. Reverb, analog synth, tubes, discrete SS amplifier, cast iron cookware, film, tape, coal forge, mechanical clock, it's endless. I have a theory that I think of as the cast iron theory. We just like things that produce awesome results based on easily implemented (low tech) but quasi-emergent phenomenon. And we really like the fact that it is so stinking hard to reproduce using very sophisticated alternatives.
I'm not saying it's impossible to do so. That would be proving too much. But there is something fascinating about it all that we love.
All very interesting from a research POV. I get your point about a spring tank is not natural, but only an early tool for imitation. Although, it is also an historical tool for guitar players. Spending my entire career in Silicon Valley as an engineer, I can understand the fascination. Nevertheless, I believe that there is an inherent human relationship with sound that is difficult to imitate digitally, even the imitation of a spring in a tank. Of course, this has been the challenge for half a century. As time goes on, it is getting ever closer and true that it is derived and delivered from creative algorithms. I would assume that we get to the point of the differences not being able to be ascertained by the human ear. It will be studies like yours that help us get there.
Best of luck on your sojourn.
Well.....isn't playing electric guitar full of anacronisms, misunderstandings and even self-delusions?
I know a bunch of guitarplayers claiming an "authentic" tone, i.e. adamantly sticking to Fender Strat/Tele or Gibson Les Paul plus vintage Marshall without mastervolume (or Fender or AC30) and of course ONLY analog effects "because of the warmth" and the "natural" tone.
.Which is of course BS.
The so-called authentic tone of early recordings is full of engineering tricks; slapback, reverb, flanger, phaser, chorus were all about engineers fooling around to get something new, interesting, more density, sustain or whatever or sensoric effect they wanted to create.
Charlie Christian and his pick-up was artificial, but it catapulted the guitar into modern pop.
Of course I have certain ideas of an ideal sound - I prefer a slight overdrive more than distortion, I never use fuzz, I prefer certain reverb and delay types and don't use my amp spring-reverb at all, I don't like chorus, I prefer a clean wah-tone mor than overdrive wah-tone.
But I recognise them as purely individual choices without any attempt to persuade anyone to join. Hmm, maybe that's why I prefer bands where I'm the only guitarplayer.....maybe I'm more egocentric than I pretended.......?
Don't get me wrong... I totally admire the thought of some guy doing pioneering work in his basement with springs and coils and calipers and a soldering iron. That is a really rare accomplishment. I don't think I'm in the position to accomplish anything so fundamental.
By the time it gets to research analysis by a bunch of graduate students with banks of computers, most definitely a lot of the "romance" has leaked out.
And as fascinated as I am about all the internal workings of this stuff (musical sound effects), recently I find that as far as playing the guitar goes for my own recordings, I'm just sticking with a clean sound. Trying to do the talking with the notes rather than mangling the sounds.
Yes, digital replications can be quite accurate.
But they are replications--copies--they are not the real thing.
Personally, a Fender Black Face Reverb amp is the best sounding reverb for guitar there is.
When one becomes measurably no different from the other, does it matter which one is which?
I have to say that the newer Digital effects are better sounding than those digital effect of the past. I had an actual spring reverb in my SS amp, Tremolo circuit in my Tube amp. I liked both and definitely preferred the spring reverb over the early digital ones.
My SS amp died, but the spring unit will be used again soon.
The ehco reverbs of today are very good. I am thinking a lot of getting the Boss Katana 50 to replace the old SS amp and it has a very good digital reverb on it that mimics spring and echo reverb.
Still keeping my spring reverb unit and Tube amp.
Because the reverb in my Princeton Reverb sounds better than everything else I've ever heard when I play. Also, it's included for free with the amp
That was my original point, though: the "real" thing, natural reverb, cannot be replicated accurately with a spring in a metal box. Spring reverb is not the "real thing". Digital reverb is not the "real thing". Both are fake approximations of reverb, so we can stop saying that one is "natural" or "real" and the other isn't, because they are both fake. Both are simulations of natural reverb. My question is why, in 2019, are we using a spring in a metal box (fake reverb), when more reliable and technologically superior digital (fake) reverbs are less expensive and less trouble-prone?
One person commenting made a good point: that the flaws of the spring reverb are part of the charm to some people. I can accept that. It makes sense.
Just don’t bring up relics. Brings out the freaky in folks around here.
Noted, thanks for the heads up.
As some guys already said, the matter would be not which is superior but which you like better. And you might change your choice depending on conditions.
It's true that "real" sprig reverb, which can make the amp a little bulkier and heavier, is still popular. For sure more acoustic amp makers have chosen digital reverb on their products but some like Schertler still uses spring reverb on their flagship models.
I like both , usually don't use reverb or delay effect, though .
When you begin w/ a false premise, there's nowhere to go.
I have a Schertler Jam 400. It is a fantastic acoustic amp/PA. What's the worse thing about it, even worst than the weight??
The digital reverb.
There is no need to invent the wheel twice.
I bought a few Surfy Bear bare boards, some parts, and a tweed head cabinet, I will make my own spring reverb...
Actually some pedal came out recently that has a "crash" feature.... I think you double tap the footswitch to make it do it iirc?
I think it's the EHX oceans 11?
What will they think of next, right?
I think I'm quite uncommitted between the 2 reverb systems (SR & DR), I really like both.
But still I too would like a Schertler amp to come with a spring reverb, because both their amp and spring reverb are the most BF era Fender-ish sounding among today's acoustic amps.
AER's match well with their nice digital reverb, though.