Speakers

[separateness]

Well, according to Jensen's charts, the C10R has a similar bump at what looks like an even higher frequency and I enjoy that driver just fine, and it seems to have a bit of what I am looking for. It also has a higher resonant frequency. I am trying to use my experience plus the information I find on the internet to make an informed purchase by corroborating what I have heard with what I read. If 2L man's link is BS, that's fine, as charts & etc are just representations and it doesn't matter how they are compensated so long as when I compare two charts they are made similarly. If the chart for the C10R is drawn a little higher or lower in the bass on this drawing or that is completely immaterial to how the speaker sounds. If I want to find a speaker with similar properties, I might look for one with a frequency chart of comparable shape, is all.
I would really rather not read a volume on loudspeakers as my interest in the subject at this time goes mostly only as far as buying exactly two for this one amp.

 

[Supertwang]

Not to needlessly bump this dead thread but I think I might buy a pair of Jenson Mod 12-50's. It seems to have the high end extension and low bump that appears to be characteristic of 'American voiced' speakers, though I'm not sure I care for how low that bump is. Here it is compared with the C12N.

View attachment 1384047
Additionally attractive is the low efficiency. The price does nothing to dissuade me either for despite my dapper looks I am no millionaire.
I could almost probably make money by selling the Century Vintages and buying these, a couple of nickels at least.

I've tried to love the "Mod" series mostly because of the price but after trying a few I threw in the towel. I'm treble sensitive and the Mod series I tried had an edgy aggressive treble response that was too much to tame with the treble controls. I think I tried an 8", 10"-35w, 12"-35w, and 12"-50w if my memory serves. I also tried a Celestion Cream Neo speaker for weight savings but Neo seems to add too much edgy treble too. I keep gravitating back to mostly preferring low efficiency AlNiCo organ pull speakers from the 50s-70s

 

[Tubedrt3000]

So some time back I built a Princetonish Reverb and since then that's all I played pretty much. I got a new Jenson C10R in there and I love the sound of it. I love it so much that for a long time now my ~Twin Reverb has been all but neglected. Well last week or so I decided to fire up the old ~Twin and holy smokes I forgot how much I loved that thing. Simply beautiful sound with no mush at all.

Well since I've been a-playing that thing I started getting that unavoidable itch in the back of my brain about how much better it could sound with a perhaps better chosen set of speakers. Right now I've got some (no longer produced) Celestion Century Vintage speakers in there. I got them because I used to play in bands and these bands played frequently raucous music. I found that for that sort of music I really liked my Twin through some Vintage 30s. Then that dastardly brain itch got me where I wanted to swap out for the same thing but several grams lighter, so I got those Century Vintages.

Well those speakers (and V30s) etc sound pretty great through a ~Twin with some sort of distortion box before it but there is, I believe, something rather missing in the clean sound. I will try to describe this as best I can. When I play the lower strings on the Princeton there is atop the low frequencies a sort of slinky, textural, 3D harmonic sound that I tend to associate with 'American' voiced speakers. This is more or less absent completely from the ~Twin with the Celestions, where the low strings produce a satisfying thud but with not much on top.

Now say I wanted to get that slinky sound on my ~Twin. What would be the move there? Is the C12N worth a darn?
Also does any one know what the heck I am talking about with this sound of the lower strings?

I've really enjoyed the Eminence JS-1250 in a few of my BF style amps. The only thing that might keep me from putting two into a twin is their sensitivity rating, which would make for an even louder twin. It's a great sounding speaker though.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JS1250--eminence-js-1250-josh-smith-signature-50-watt-12-inch-replacement-guitar-speaker-8-ohm

 

[2L man]

Well, according to Jensen's charts, the C10R has a similar bump at what looks like an even higher frequency and I enjoy that driver just fine, and it seems to have a bit of what I am looking for. It also has a higher resonant frequency. I am trying to use my experience plus the information I find on the internet to make an informed purchase by corroborating what I have heard with what I read. If 2L man's link is BS, that's fine, as charts & etc are just representations and it doesn't matter how they are compensated so long as when I compare two charts they are made similarly. If the chart for the C10R is drawn a little higher or lower in the bass on this drawing or that is completely immaterial to how the speaker sounds. If I want to find a speaker with similar properties, I might look for one with a frequency chart of comparable shape, is all.
I would really rather not read a volume on loudspeakers as my interest in the subject at this time goes mostly only as far as buying exactly two for this one amp.

IEC baffle measuring make similar amplifying and attenuating effect the Open Back Cabinet does. Baffle and Cab dimensions effect where in frequency range "the bumps and humps" come. In actual use Cabinet is placed to a room which produce reflections and it is more variables there come.

All Jensen Guitar speakers frequency responses have V-shape at 400Hz because of Open Baffle. All have lows "bloat". Check Digital N12D which is measured in "vented box" and it lack them. Now it mistakenly say it is measured in Open Baffle but originally it was not!!!

This is another good article, especially fourth Graph which has open and closed cabinets. Open back amplify lows and attenuate low mids. Smoother 700Hz...1kHz because internal reflection waves can leak out.

Celestion Seventy 80 guitar speaker measurements

Celestion Seventy 80 (Celestion G12P-80) guitar speaker measurements. Frequency response, impedance curve, harmonic distortion...

www.tonestack.net

 

[elpico]

Open back amplify lows and attenuate low mids.

Open back cabs *attenuate* low frequencies, not amplify them. This is the reason all the speakers you own that need to make bass are in boxes. Guitars aren't basses, so they don't make low frequencies in the first place, which allows us to get away with using the open back cabs.

So what's going with your author's 4th chart then? Well for one, he says he's placed the mic 1cm from the speaker when the standard for making these plots is 1m, so he's probably getting some effect from that. Also open baffles can experience some ripple in the pass band, including a typical "hump" right above the rolloff. The humps occur where the difference in travel time between the front and back waves puts them in phase at the listener/mic. So it's possible he's picking up a bit of that ripple there. Not enough info there to know for sure, but we can say for sure that open baffle speakers attenuate lows below a frequency determined by the dimensions of the baffle.

 

[2L man]

Open back cabs *attenuate* low frequencies, not amplify them. This is the reason all the speakers you own that need to make bass are in boxes. Guitars aren't basses, so they don't make low frequencies in the first place, which allows us to get away with using the open back cabs.

So what's going with your author's 4th chart then? Well for one, he says he's placed the mic 1cm from the speaker when the standard for making these plots is 1m, so he's probably getting some effect from that. Also open baffles can experience some ripple in the pass band, including a typical "hump" right above the rolloff. The humps occur where the difference in travel time between the front and back waves puts them in phase at the listener/mic. So it's possible he's picking up a bit of that ripple there. Not enough info there to know for sure, but we can say for sure that open baffle speakers attenuate lows below a frequency determined by the dimensions of the baffle.

Open Back amplify lows when sound frequencu coming from rear come less than 90 decrees delayed to front (listening) side. Here I call lows about 100...150Hz which show in Jensen Frequency Responses

There come attenuation to mids when rear sound frequency phase is 91....269 decrees delayed where 180 decree delay is exact opposite phase causing deepest dip which all Jensen Guitar speakers have at 400Hz. If it come from loudspeaker I believe Jensen would produce speakers which have different frequency attenuation?

Compare Jensens to Celestion which are measured using infinite/closed baffle and don't have that! Also compare Jensen Guitar speakers to Jensen Digital and Bass speakers which are measured in "vented cab" which frequency response come much more even.

Open Cab and Open Baffle dimensions is a variable which define where amplifying and attenuation come!

When microphone is placed only 1cm from the grill cloth effect that Celestkon 70-80 open cab FR but it is very clear to see that they are there

Significant part of Am-sound come from Open Back Cabinet and as significant part of Brit Sound come from Closed Cab.

 

[GlideOn-Designs]

Yes, there's a certain magic to the old American voiced, medium power speakers. More treble treble shifted emphasis than your average British voiced speakers and have a deeper, piano-like bass that keeps them from sounding too bright.

I can't recall the model name, but there was a Milkman amp I played in a 1x12 that had a Jupiter Condenser 12" in it - I want to say it was a Deluxe style amp with modest controls, but the turquoise speaker in back looked particularly handsome. I got a 10" version and put in a SuperChamp X2 and it has that old-school Jensen C12N tone right out of the box with that "upper treble swirl" thing going on.

I gave it to my cousin as a graduation present, but I was so tempted to keep that amp for myself it was so, so good with that speaker swap, both vintage and modern tones like a refined, aged bourbon personality to it.

 

[separateness]

@GlideOn-Designs Huh, I had never heard of these. Just when I had yet again convinced myself I was going to have to play wait and see on reverb and e bay hoping for the opportunity to pay way too much for a set of ratty Oxford 12T6's, I have another lead. They seem to have only two 50W speakers so that narrows things down pleasantly for me as far a digit in over reviews and the like. Thank you.

 

[GlideOn-Designs]

@GlideOn-Designs Huh, I had never heard of these. Just when I had yet again convinced myself I was going to have to play wait and see on reverb and e bay hoping for the opportunity to pay way too much for a set of ratty Oxford 12T6's, I have another lead. They seem to have only two 50W speakers so that narrows things down pleasantly for me as far a digit in over reviews and the like. Thank you.

Jupiter Condenser - same company that also make the Jupiter Capacitors, which are truly great sounding audiophile grade caps, if somewhat expensive and arguably snobbish. What cannot be argued is that they are a serious boutique brand with serious quality and impeccable reputation.

I don't think you can do the paper voice coil version I did, but I expect the LC12 or the M12C which are 50w handling will do just fine. The both a re takes on the C12N. One is more of a pristine, fresh 1960s 'new' sound, the other is more of a "decades later" broken-in tone.

Choose wisely.

 

[separateness]

Hm, well I was really attracted to the M12C because lower efficiency would be darned cool but I would rather not pay new prices for a speaker that sounds worn out.