Speaker swap to gain clarity in Fender Blues Junior? (very specific question)

[Luca Torelli]

(Sorry for the looong post in advance!)

Ok, I know this subject has been veeeeery extensively talked (and believe me, I have read A LOT of threads about it), but I'm looking for very specific advice, so I thought a new thread may be a good idea.

The thing is I recently had to sell an amp that I loved crazily (combo with open back, 12w, KT66 tubes, Celestion Greenback, spring reverb.. a lovely cross between Fender and Marshall), mostly due to bad economy times at home and well, I know for sure is the amp that better suits my playing ever, but at the same time is a boutique amp and I'm not gonna maintain an expensive amp if money is short, so it went away with great sadness. Finally ended up buying an used Blues Junior III as a replacement.

Why not? it has the perfect power, size, weight and portability for me (playing a lot of gigs around town, generally with my own amp, sometimes in public transport..). It's cheap, too. You can't even crank a 15w amp in venues anymore. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of good guitarists absolutely killin' it live in front of me with just a humble Blues Junior, so I knew it could sound great, but didn't knew if it will do it for me.

Turns out I'm lovin' the little thing! my playing style is very basic: I use right hand dynamics (alternate between fingers and pick too) and guitar controls to go from clean to saturate and all in between. Using a Telecaster and a 335 exclusively these days. Mainly playing rock, pop, blues covers; my own material tends more toward blues, soul, West coast.

With the Master Vol. I can get the range I need from this amp. It's a totally different thing than your typical Blackface, and after owning no less than FOUR different Deluxe Reverb Reissues, I have learnt that the damn Blues Junior works better for me than the Blackface type. Yes, I even prefer the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Deville these days..

The only complain I have about the BJr. is I'm having a hard time "cleaning" completely my "cleans" when doing more rhythmn, strumming or arpeggiated chords. The more rock chords heavy strumming or even bluesy or hard rock leads? forget about it, I'm LOVING this amp for that; I can even use it on its own without pedals, thought I use a Treble Booster here and there sometimes (my only dirt pedal at the moment, it works great for me).

So I guess the question here is: do you think a speaker swap may be a solution? this is the III version and has the Fender (Eminence?) Lightnin' Bolt as stock, which I actually like a lot.

I CLARIFY: I'm not looking for more advanced mods, nor circuit alterations, I don't want a new bigger pine cab or the BillM mods or any other more complicated or expensive mod. I grabbed this thing mainly for the price, and I'm not handy at all with tools and electronics.

I don't find the amp to sound "boxy", as a lot of people say.

I don't think the amp suffers a lack of bass (in fact, almost the opposite to my taste).

I don't find it to be harsh or ice picking or too trebly.

Just would like more clarity when playing soft, or maybe a little (just a little) less compressed or more dynamic range. At the same time, I love the lead sound I get from it, so maybe this is a problem without a solution that requires a compromise.

It's true that I haven't own it enough time to know the amp from A to Z, I'm still getting familiar with it, and maybe I'm looking for a change that the speaker WON'T take care of, but I felt like asking here, specially to forumites experienced with the same amp and different speakers.

I have experiences with:

Jensen C12Q
Jensen C12N
Jensen C12K
WGS G12C
Celestion Greenback
Celestion Creamback
Celestion G12T-75
Celestion A-Type
Eminence Swamp Thang

Being the Jensen C12N and the A-Type the only ones I have tried with a Blues Jr. (two different ones), and honestly, I prefer the Lightnin' Bolt stock in mine.

All the other speakers I have tried them in different amps, so not really a valid comparison.

I would say that the WGS G12C and the Greenback are my favorites by far (although very different), but it's not fair because I used them in VERY GOOD amps, like my beloved KT66 combo, so the Blues Jr. could be a totally different situation.

I'm gonna stop typing RIGHT HERE: do you guys have any advice?

Thanks!

 

[InstantCoffeeBlue]

"Clarity when playing soft". Huh.

I'd probably look at the GA-SC64 from Eminence. Folks love these for their touch sensitivity. Eminence 1258 is always a good choice for these amps, I'm just not sure how different it'll be from the "Lightning Bolt" you already have".

 

[Refugee]

I believe you are looking for a JBL D120F, or no (F).

 

[Wooly Fox]

I own a JBL 120F and it doesn't break up at all. Very nice speaker if heavy and expensive!

The whole "clarity when soft" is more a headroom and dynamics question that a speaker alone won't add. Headroom is what you need for clarity when clean, it's why I still use a 50W tube amp (or that's what I tell myself)

 

[robt57]

c-rex

 

[Billy3]

(Sorry for the looong post in advance!)

Ok, I know this subject has been veeeeery extensively talked (and believe me, I have read A LOT of threads about it), but I'm looking for very specific advice, so I thought a new thread may be a good idea.

The thing is I recently had to sell an amp that I loved crazily (combo with open back, 12w, KT66 tubes, Celestion Greenback, spring reverb.. a lovely cross between Fender and Marshall), mostly due to bad economy times at home and well, I know for sure is the amp that better suits my playing ever, but at the same time is a boutique amp and I'm not gonna maintain an expensive amp if money is short, so it went away with great sadness. Finally ended up buying an used Blues Junior III as a replacement.

Why not? it has the perfect power, size, weight and portability for me (playing a lot of gigs around town, generally with my own amp, sometimes in public transport..). It's cheap, too. You can't even crank a 15w amp in venues anymore. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of good guitarists absolutely killin' it live in front of me with just a humble Blues Junior, so I knew it could sound great, but didn't knew if it will do it for me.

Turns out I'm lovin' the little thing! my playing style is very basic: I use right hand dynamics (alternate between fingers and pick too) and guitar controls to go from clean to saturate and all in between. Using a Telecaster and a 335 exclusively these days. Mainly playing rock, pop, blues covers; my own material tends more toward blues, soul, West coast.

With the Master Vol. I can get the range I need from this amp. It's a totally different thing than your typical Blackface, and after owning no less than FOUR different Deluxe Reverb Reissues, I have learnt that the damn Blues Junior works better for me than the Blackface type. Yes, I even prefer the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Deville these days..

The only complain I have about the BJr. is I'm having a hard time "cleaning" completely my "cleans" when doing more rhythmn, strumming or arpeggiated chords. The more rock chords heavy strumming or even bluesy or hard rock leads? forget about it, I'm LOVING this amp for that; I can even use it on its own without pedals, thought I use a Treble Booster here and there sometimes (my only dirt pedal at the moment, it works great for me).

So I guess the question here is: do you think a speaker swap may be a solution? this is the III version and has the Fender (Eminence?) Lightnin' Bolt as stock, which I actually like a lot.

I CLARIFY: I'm not looking for more advanced mods, nor circuit alterations, I don't want a new bigger pine cab or the BillM mods or any other more complicated or expensive mod. I grabbed this thing mainly for the price, and I'm not handy at all with tools and electronics.

I don't find the amp to sound "boxy", as a lot of people say.

I don't think the amp suffers a lack of bass (in fact, almost the opposite to my taste).

I don't find it to be harsh or ice picking or too trebly.

Just would like more clarity when playing soft, or maybe a little (just a little) less compressed or more dynamic range. At the same time, I love the lead sound I get from it, so maybe this is a problem without a solution that requires a compromise.

It's true that I haven't own it enough time to know the amp from A to Z, I'm still getting familiar with it, and maybe I'm looking for a change that the speaker WON'T take care of, but I felt like asking here, specially to forumites experienced with the same amp and different speakers.

I have experiences with:

Jensen C12Q
Jensen C12N
Jensen C12K
WGS G12C
Celestion Greenback
Celestion Creamback
Celestion G12T-75
Celestion A-Type
Eminence Swamp Thang

Being the Jensen C12N and the A-Type the only ones I have tried with a Blues Jr. (two different ones), and honestly, I prefer the Lightnin' Bolt stock in mine.

All the other speakers I have tried them in different amps, so not really a valid comparison.

I would say that the WGS G12C and the Greenback are my favorites by far (although very different), but it's not fair because I used them in VERY GOOD amps, like my beloved KT66 combo, so the Blues Jr. could be a totally different situation.

I'm gonna stop typing RIGHT HERE: do you guys have any advice?

Thanks!

Holy cow! That was a lot. Do you ever use an EQ pedal? Imo those babies can fix many ear problems.

 

[Tim S]

For yuks, before you start speaker swapping, have you trying swapping a 5751 into v1? Maybe a *little* less gain can get you the clarity you’re looking for?

 

[2L man]

Check Tornado/Stealth 100. Very good clarity from quiet to loud and excellent for time based effects and match Fender amps very well. Dynamics is good too. Generally Neodyms do compress more than Ceramics but less than Alnicos.

There are few Youtube reviews and comparisons. Lots of Thomann reviews to read but note 8 and 16 ohms are separate. Many languages too but clicking each make them understable english. When searching reviews quite often come Jazz players which I believe prefer clarity.

 

[dougstrum]

Lightning bolt, is that the same as blue or gold label fender special design made by Eminence? If so they're similar to 1258, but I find the 1258 seems smoother/fuller if that makes sense.

I've used gb128 in my Pro Jr which is also el84 amp. The gb128 would probably be a great fit for what you want.

 

[Chiogtr4x]

(Sorry for the looong post in advance!)

Ok, I know this subject has been veeeeery extensively talked (and believe me, I have read A LOT of threads about it), but I'm looking for very specific advice, so I thought a new thread may be a good idea.

The thing is I recently had to sell an amp that I loved crazily (combo with open back, 12w, KT66 tubes, Celestion Greenback, spring reverb.. a lovely cross between Fender and Marshall), mostly due to bad economy times at home and well, I know for sure is the amp that better suits my playing ever, but at the same time is a boutique amp and I'm not gonna maintain an expensive amp if money is short, so it went away with great sadness. Finally ended up buying an used Blues Junior III as a replacement.

Why not? it has the perfect power, size, weight and portability for me (playing a lot of gigs around town, generally with my own amp, sometimes in public transport..). It's cheap, too. You can't even crank a 15w amp in venues anymore. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of good guitarists absolutely killin' it live in front of me with just a humble Blues Junior, so I knew it could sound great, but didn't knew if it will do it for me.

Turns out I'm lovin' the little thing! my playing style is very basic: I use right hand dynamics (alternate between fingers and pick too) and guitar controls to go from clean to saturate and all in between. Using a Telecaster and a 335 exclusively these days. Mainly playing rock, pop, blues covers; my own material tends more toward blues, soul, West coast.

With the Master Vol. I can get the range I need from this amp. It's a totally different thing than your typical Blackface, and after owning no less than FOUR different Deluxe Reverb Reissues, I have learnt that the damn Blues Junior works better for me than the Blackface type. Yes, I even prefer the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Deville these days..

The only complain I have about the BJr. is I'm having a hard time "cleaning" completely my "cleans" when doing more rhythmn, strumming or arpeggiated chords. The more rock chords heavy strumming or even bluesy or hard rock leads? forget about it, I'm LOVING this amp for that; I can even use it on its own without pedals, thought I use a Treble Booster here and there sometimes (my only dirt pedal at the moment, it works great for me).

So I guess the question here is: do you think a speaker swap may be a solution? this is the III version and has the Fender (Eminence?) Lightnin' Bolt as stock, which I actually like a lot.

I CLARIFY: I'm not looking for more advanced mods, nor circuit alterations, I don't want a new bigger pine cab or the BillM mods or any other more complicated or expensive mod. I grabbed this thing mainly for the price, and I'm not handy at all with tools and electronics.

I don't find the amp to sound "boxy", as a lot of people say.

I don't think the amp suffers a lack of bass (in fact, almost the opposite to my taste).

I don't find it to be harsh or ice picking or too trebly.

Just would like more clarity when playing soft, or maybe a little (just a little) less compressed or more dynamic range. At the same time, I love the lead sound I get from it, so maybe this is a problem without a solution that requires a compromise.

It's true that I haven't own it enough time to know the amp from A to Z, I'm still getting familiar with it, and maybe I'm looking for a change that the speaker WON'T take care of, but I felt like asking here, specially to forumites experienced with the same amp and different speakers.

I have experiences with:

Jensen C12Q
Jensen C12N
Jensen C12K
WGS G12C
Celestion Greenback
Celestion Creamback
Celestion G12T-75
Celestion A-Type
Eminence Swamp Thang

Being the Jensen C12N and the A-Type the only ones I have tried with a Blues Jr. (two different ones), and honestly, I prefer the Lightnin' Bolt stock in mine.

All the other speakers I have tried them in different amps, so not really a valid comparison.

I would say that the WGS G12C and the Greenback are my favorites by far (although very different), but it's not fair because I used them in VERY GOOD amps, like my beloved KT66 combo, so the Blues Jr. could be a totally different situation.

I'm gonna stop typing RIGHT HERE: do you guys have any advice?

Thanks!

I gigged 17 years with a blonde 1999 Blues Jr.
( blues, R&R, and Classic Country bands)

After a year or two with the stock speaker, I put in the Neo magnet Eminence Lil' Texas speaker.
* bad back, needed to reduce amp weight ( now I gig with smaller amps)

Rated at 120 watts, very balanced EQ and 'loud and clear'

I always ran the amp clean:
Volume at '4' or '5' and Master Volume, wherever needed, for the room. Rarely past NOON.

- in a Country band no OD pedal

- in blues and R&R bands ( nothing harder distortion than Stones/ Allman Brothers or maybe some Southern Rock), I used an 'always ON Blues Driver' and rolled from clean> dirty with my guitar Volume knob...
This pedal boosted the BJ, and I set the pedal's Gain knob to how much sustain/distortion I wanted to hear when actually turning my guitar Volume knob all the way up.

It was predictable, controllable- and sounded very good- I could do anything with this setup- use all pickup positions on any guitar, for a strong sound

 

[Chicago Slim]

I second the Eminence Lil' Texas speaker recommendation. I also recommend trying EL84M or other military grade power tubes for later breakup. This is what I run in my Bad Cat, Cougar 15.

 

[Luca Torelli]

First of all: thanks for all the responses and advices so far! specially after reading my huuuuge first post hahaha

I'm gonna answer more specifically to everybody, but I wanted to add this video comparison to the original post, since I thought it might illustrate better what I was trying to achieve than just words describing sounds and "playing feel":



One of the problems here is I don't know what type of speaker is the stock Lightning Bolt, so I don't know what direction go from there.

Happily, this guy has the same stock speaker and uses the same type of guitars like me (Tele and 335).

If you go to 7 minute mark, you can hear him playing the 335 first with the stock speaker, then with a Cannabis Rex, and more or less testing dynamics playing with fingers, hitting harder and then softer, etc.. (amp settings can be seen earlier in the video, and aren't too extreme in any way)

To my ears, the Lightning Bolt doesn't sound THAT bad actually, but you can hear that when he hits the strings harder (still not rock hard, doesn't even use a pick), the amp gets muddy and has like an ugly compressed thing very quickly.

Around min. 8:20 plays more or less the same thing with the Cannabis Rex and everything sounds cleaner, more defined, and it appears to me that the amp is responding better to changes in dynamics, not being the best sounding amp in the world obviously.

Then he tries the Jensen as well; not bad sounding, but too thin for my taste.

I don't know if this is due to better bass handling, more scooped mids, more efficiency or whatever, but gets closer to what I'm looking for.

Didn't even considered the Cannabis Rex initially -from description didn't seemed I was gonna like it- but I'm considering it now.

 

[InstantCoffeeBlue]

First of all: thanks for all the responses and advices so far! specially after reading my huuuuge first post hahaha

I'm gonna answer more specifically to everybody, but I wanted to add this video comparison to the original post, since I thought it might illustrate better what I was trying to achieve than just words describing sounds and "playing feel":



One of the problems here is I don't know what type of speaker is the stock Lightning Bolt, so I don't know what direction go from there.

Happily, this guy has the same stock speaker and uses the same type of guitars like me (Tele and 335).

If you go to 7 minute mark, you can hear him playing the 335 first with the stock speaker, then with a Cannabis Rex, and more or less testing dynamics playing with fingers, hitting harder and then softer, etc.. (amp settings can be seen earlier in the video, and aren't too extreme in any way)

To my ears, the Lightning Bolt doesn't sound THAT bad actually, but you can hear that when he hits the strings harder (still not rock hard, doesn't even use a pick), the amp gets muddy and has like an ugly compressed thing very quickly.

Around min. 8:20 plays more or less the same thing with the Cannabis Rex and everything sounds cleaner, more defined, and it appears to me that the amp is responding better to changes in dynamics, not being the best sounding amp in the world obviously.

Then he tries the Jensen as well; not bad sounding, but too thin for my taste.

I don't know if this is due to better bass handling, more scooped mids, more efficiency or whatever, but gets closer to what I'm looking for.

Didn't even considered the Cannabis Rex initially -from description didn't seemed I was gonna like it- but I'm considering it now.

Cannabis Rex is a really popular choice for these amps. Give it a shot and let us know how it works!

 

[klasaine]

I have a C-Rex in a Bjr. III
It does have more clarity than whatever stock speaker was in there.

 

[JustABluesGuy]

This sounds like it might be more of an amp headroom problem than specifically a speaker problem. It seems unlikely that any early breakup is coming from a modern high power handling speaker distorting. If the stock speaker is low efficiency, a more efficient one can help with headroom.

As mentioned, I would try out an EQ. You implied it has plenty of bass, even more than you like. Bass takes much more power to amplify. Reducing the bass hitting the front end will let you squeeze out a but more clean headroom. An EQ is a very useful pedal anyway, so you need one anyway.

If the tubes are original, it might be worth trying some new ones and see if that helps. If they are fine, then you will have backups. I would start at the front with V1 and work up to the power tubes and see if that helps.

Good luck with it and report back!

 

[68goldtop]

Hi Luca!

Thanks for the clip - I'll look into that later

... To my ears, the Lightning Bolt doesn't sound THAT bad actually, but you can hear that when he hits the strings harder (still not rock hard, doesn't even use a pick), the amp gets muddy and has like an ugly compressed thing very quickly...

After many years (15+) of using the - rather bright and spanky - Fender/Eminence "brown & gold-label"-12" in the Blues Junior, Blues Deluxe and Hotrod Deluxe (among others), Fender decided on a more "mellow" speaker for the BJ III - the Eminence "Lightning Bolt".
It's not as tight/bright, it's warmer-sounding, and it breaks up more readily.
I like it quite a bit as it offers (imo) a great "middle ground" for playing clean AND dirty, and I like the fact that it's not so LOUD - but it might not be the best choice for "clarity"

I don't know if this is due to better bass handling, more scooped mids, more efficiency or whatever, but gets closer to what I'm looking for...

I think it's a mix of all three factors - and it's good for you, as you have a better idea what to look for!

I know some players that love the Celestion "Vintage 30" (loud + tight), or the G12H30 (loud + fat) in their Blues Juniors.
I personally like the G12M65 Creamback very much - it's like a bigger "Greenback" to me.

For grins you could try out one of the Fender/Eminences that used to come stock - they're a bargain on the used market and you might like it!

cheers - 68.

 

[schmee]

(Sorry for the looong post in advance!)

Ok, I know this subject has been veeeeery extensively talked (and believe me, I have read A LOT of threads about it), but I'm looking for very specific advice, so I thought a new thread may be a good idea.

The thing is I recently had to sell an amp that I loved crazily (combo with open back, 12w, KT66 tubes, Celestion Greenback, spring reverb.. a lovely cross between Fender and Marshall), mostly due to bad economy times at home and well, I know for sure is the amp that better suits my playing ever, but at the same time is a boutique amp and I'm not gonna maintain an expensive amp if money is short, so it went away with great sadness. Finally ended up buying an used Blues Junior III as a replacement.

Why not? it has the perfect power, size, weight and portability for me (playing a lot of gigs around town, generally with my own amp, sometimes in public transport..). It's cheap, too. You can't even crank a 15w amp in venues anymore. On the other hand, I've seen a lot of good guitarists absolutely killin' it live in front of me with just a humble Blues Junior, so I knew it could sound great, but didn't knew if it will do it for me.

Turns out I'm lovin' the little thing! my playing style is very basic: I use right hand dynamics (alternate between fingers and pick too) and guitar controls to go from clean to saturate and all in between. Using a Telecaster and a 335 exclusively these days. Mainly playing rock, pop, blues covers; my own material tends more toward blues, soul, West coast.

With the Master Vol. I can get the range I need from this amp. It's a totally different thing than your typical Blackface, and after owning no less than FOUR different Deluxe Reverb Reissues, I have learnt that the damn Blues Junior works better for me than the Blackface type. Yes, I even prefer the Hot Rod Deluxe or the Blues Deville these days..

The only complain I have about the BJr. is I'm having a hard time "cleaning" completely my "cleans" when doing more rhythmn, strumming or arpeggiated chords. The more rock chords heavy strumming or even bluesy or hard rock leads? forget about it, I'm LOVING this amp for that; I can even use it on its own without pedals, thought I use a Treble Booster here and there sometimes (my only dirt pedal at the moment, it works great for me).

So I guess the question here is: do you think a speaker swap may be a solution? this is the III version and has the Fender (Eminence?) Lightnin' Bolt as stock, which I actually like a lot.

I CLARIFY: I'm not looking for more advanced mods, nor circuit alterations, I don't want a new bigger pine cab or the BillM mods or any other more complicated or expensive mod. I grabbed this thing mainly for the price, and I'm not handy at all with tools and electronics.

I don't find the amp to sound "boxy", as a lot of people say.

I don't think the amp suffers a lack of bass (in fact, almost the opposite to my taste).

I don't find it to be harsh or ice picking or too trebly.

Just would like more clarity when playing soft, or maybe a little (just a little) less compressed or more dynamic range. At the same time, I love the lead sound I get from it, so maybe this is a problem without a solution that requires a compromise.

It's true that I haven't own it enough time to know the amp from A to Z, I'm still getting familiar with it, and maybe I'm looking for a change that the speaker WON'T take care of, but I felt like asking here, specially to forumites experienced with the same amp and different speakers.

I have experiences with:

Jensen C12Q
Jensen C12N
Jensen C12K
WGS G12C
Celestion Greenback
Celestion Creamback
Celestion G12T-75
Celestion A-Type
Eminence Swamp Thang

Being the Jensen C12N and the A-Type the only ones I have tried with a Blues Jr. (two different ones), and honestly, I prefer the Lightnin' Bolt stock in mine.

All the other speakers I have tried them in different amps, so not really a valid comparison.

I would say that the WGS G12C and the Greenback are my favorites by far (although very different), but it's not fair because I used them in VERY GOOD amps, like my beloved KT66 combo, so the Blues Jr. could be a totally different situation.

I'm gonna stop typing RIGHT HERE: do you guys have any advice?

Thanks!

Based on your description, I think what you are hearing is the "EL84 Sizzle" Those power tubes have this grainy smooth tone. Also, most amps with those tubes are punchy with big lower mids. Hard to describe. It's a tone I like but not one I would want in every situation.

"maybe I'm looking for a change that the speaker WON'T take care of..."
I have a feeling you are correct about this. You are trying to change the tone when playing softly. That tells me you are not pushing the amp in that situation and that is why I think it's the EL84's. If you were playing loud, pushing the amp and want more clarity I would say get a loud dB speaker with clean tone. But that's not your issue.

If you are looking for "clarity when playing soft" , unless your current speaker is defective/blown, or really feeble and bad, it's not a speaker problem. I get the feeling your speaker holds up fine playing louder....?

I certainly wouldn't go toward a C Rex, that will produce less clarity than many speakers I think.

 

[robt57]

cream back prob be 2nd choice after c-rex for me. Or A/B try, Have a c-rex and 25w GB which personally I luv in DR or BJr.

 

[djh22]

I have had the Blues Junior since 2017 and I found that replacing the stock Jensen C12N with a Mojotone BV-30H (similar to Celestion G12H30) gives me all that I need.

 

[dan40]

Like "JustABluesGuy" mentioned above, look for a speaker with a high sensitivity rating. If your current speaker is rated at say 96db, using a different speaker with a rating of 100-13db will make the amp sound noticeably louder. With a louder speaker, you can turn down the gain or volume a bit more yet still retain the same volume you had with the current speaker. By turning down the volume, the amp is less likely to break up when you dig in hard. It won't be a huge difference but it will be noticeable.