Speaker science - Somebody teach me

[EVB123]

I was at a friend's gig last night...multiple guitar players...Hendrix tribute.

Two buddies on opposite sides of the stage...both playing strats with similar pedals and amps.

Stage left: 61 strat, fender vibrolux, small pedal board. Stage volume was loud but ok. Volume and tone in the crowd was huge. Full, loud, hifi. He moved a ton of air.

Stage right: Newer strat, Dr Z (40w?), small pedal board. Stage volume was outrageous. LOUD, but full and killer tone. Crowd volume was nothing. Very thin and barely heard in the mix. I kept saying he needed to turn up, but he was dimed...and killing the guys on stage.

Speaker difference? Someone explain this speaker/amp enigma to me please.

 

[EVB123]

Btw...neither were mic'd for the PA.

 

[uriah1]

It’s that mid thing. The 2 10s
In the fender are in a guitar mid freq. zone all the time. Imho

 

[bottlenecker]

I doubt this is just about speakers. If there was a way to go back and examine everything, I'd start with the room.

 

[Killing Floor]

Don’t rule out the cabinet’s impact on the sound and the range.

 

[D_Malone]

Yeah, way too many variables to just assume it was the speakers. Not that they can’t make a huge difference, but there are so many other factors to consider.

 

[Dismalhead]

Like the others have said, tons of variables. My first thought though is was the Dr. Z. open backed? I know my closed-back amps require you to be much further out in front to hear them compared to my open-backed amps.

 

[EVB123]

I doubt this is just about speakers. If there was a way to go back and examine everything, I'd start with the room.

Straight up shotgun room. Probably 40ft wide and 100yds deep.

 

[EVB123]

Like the others have said, tons of variables. My first thought though is was the Dr. Z. open backed? I know my closed-back amps require you to be much further out in front to hear them compared to my open-backed amps.

2x12 closed back setup.

 

[EVB123]

Both amps were nearly dimed and both about the same wattage. I'm assuming the vibrolux was a blackface openback. Still....moved way more air at a distance. And....the Dr. Z was cranked.

Had to be a difference in speakers.

I should have pushed the sound guy to mic the amps.

 

[Twang-ineer]

It was 100% the room if there was that dramatic a difference.

 

[Wally]

I would think it would have been interesting to have run each amp through the other’s speakers. I suspect the cab is the difference. An OpenBack cab disperses sound in a wider soundstage, and perhaps that dispersion pattern worked better with the room….with the sound waves bouncing off walls back into the audience????
A closed back cab is very directional. Standing that 2x12 up with the speakers in a vertical orientation might have helped because that creates a wider dispersion pattern…a wider sound stage. That might have worked better for the room. Imho, a closed back cab needs to be mic’d if one wants to cover a room uniformly.…unless the cab is a 2x cab with vertical orientation.

 

[schmee]

Yeah, too many variables. BUT, a 40 watt amp should project out well. Could be lots of things though, including even who is playing which song parts. I do think that watts dont necessarily translate into projected sound though.
Examples.
-I had a Music Man 100 watt combo tube amp years ago. RD112, or ??130 maybe? Man, that thing just would not project out. I tried a different cab finally, a 4 x 10. No change. All cabs were open back. Took it to a tech, he did a couple things, determined it was putting out 92 watts. I tried one more gig and finally sold it. Personally I think maybe it was the tone stack/architecture. It was pretty 90's mid scooped sound. Frankly, my old Deluxe Reverb sounded louder at the gig. At least on stage.
-Another story. Years ago we played at a big ex roller rink. High arched ceilings like a barn or etc. I had my 74 Vibrolux which had two Weber 10F150's in it. The band was mic'd and there was a sound man. I asked at break how it sounded. He said : "You are way too loud, even after I turned your amp mic off" My Vibrolux was on 3.5 on volume. That amp was useless/too loud with the Webers in it.
-One more: My experience with Z amps (I've had 4 in the last 20 years) is they seem to be voiced better for a bridge pickup style player. Punchy, middy and loud. Brad Paisley. But not as good for neck pickup players. This statement is a BIG generality though.

 

[teletimetx]

Can’t rule out the room, either.

About 2 months ago, went to see a friend’s band at a new venue. Shotgun for sure; 2 large overhead speaker arrays above the stage. No wall or ceiling treatments anywhere.

My guitar player friend says both venue owner and sound guy swear the sound was perfect - in the sound booth at the back.

However, at table up front, near stage right and could barely hear a little bit of my friend’s guitar (he was stage right, playing through TM Twin Reverb); keyboard was stage left and we could only hear what his right hand was playing, none of the low end from keys; bass was center - we could hear him plenty and drums - too loud. Vocals ok.

Reports from rear right of venue were a totally different mix, and not good.

Either bad mix or bad room or both. Good luck telling that to the sound booth.

 

[Lowerleftcoast]

And the bass amp was on which side?

 

[InstantCoffeeBlue]

Did the guy with the Dr. Z have his settings overly scooped in search of the "Holy Grail Mayer Tone", as the Strat folks like to call it? Because if a big powerful amp isn't cutting on stage, overly-scooped tone settings that might've sounded good at home or at band practice (especially when combined with an already scooped guitar like a Strat) are a frequent culprit.

 

[PARCO]

I once went to seea friend play. He had a 100 watt Marshall and a 4x12 cabinet. What I heard in the audience was as if he were very very far away. He had a good tone but no punch.

 

[jvin248]

.

Rummage through the YouTube channel Johan Segeborn. Learn a lot.

.

 

[TheCheapGuitarist]

99% sure it's a difference in EQ between one amp and the other.

 

[Cosmic Cowboy]

99% sure it's a difference in EQ between one amp and the other.

I am guessing its an eq thing. If both amps are similar in power, it usually means one amp was not cutting through....that is a frequency (eq) thing. But yeah if you are playing that kinda gig with cranked amps....a 40 watter can run outta headroom pretty quick.