Speaker Efficiency -- Need your help

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Jeru, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. bradpdx

    bradpdx Friend of Leo's

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    Not the OP, but a 12 watt amp can be fine at many gigs. I use a Princeton 68 Custom RI with stock speaker for most gigs, and yes - if that’s not enough, the drummer is too loud for me. I have a real 65 DR, but I don’t want to be on stage with it once it starts to break up. I lost all interest in loud music many years ago, but some people like it.

    A Princeton NR with added gain at the front end will achieve the same volume levels as the reverb models - with distortion, it’s what they do.

    I suspect the OP will ultimately want a bigger amp. Me, I want nuanced drummers with small kits.


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  2. jsnwhite619

    jsnwhite619 Friend of Leo's

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    I built a PR last year and used a 100mA Hammond PT and 12" Cannabis Rex. I know the OP's amp is original, but a few things I learned from the one I built if he's open to modding it and get more out of it.

    NFB: simply doubling the 2700R NFB resistor will open it up a lot and give more volume and a little brighter without sacrificing the cleans.

    I used a cap board instead of a can, but if it's the original can, it could probably benefit from replacement.

    That Hammond PT is a drop-in, the 290AX, and is only $60 or so and gives you a 40% increase in current rating. That is a nice boost for any amp, especially one that is struggling to begin with.

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  3. PhredE

    PhredE Tele-Meister

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    Oops, you stand correct. (apolgies) I posted in my less-than-peak hours.. the math (and logic!) escaped me... '2' is the correct number indeed. 2x louder is still improvement..
     
  4. alnico357

    alnico357 Tele-Holic

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    I have a Celestion G12T-75 (97dB) in a cabinet. I plugged it into my DRRI extension speaker jack, along with the amp's on board Alnico Blue, rated at 102dB. I thought there was a short because no sound was coming from the G-12T. I finally figured out the Blue was so much more efficient it was putting out sound before the G12T could catch up.
     
  5. Askwhy

    Askwhy Tele-Meister

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    Lots o misinformation regarding doubling of volume, etc in this thread. Keep it simple. A more sensitive speaker absolutely makes a difference. Going from a 95db to over 100 will make a large difference. As others have mentioned going to a 12 if there is room and using a red fang or cannabis rex will let you outgun higher wattage amps if that is your desire. You may want to just enjoy it for what it is and get something larger for the gigs that require it. Hot rod deluxes sell very well for a reason.
     
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  6. Alter

    Alter Tele-Meister

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    If a Princeton doesn't cut it, probably a Deluxe Reverb won't cut it either. Once the Princeton has an upgraded speaker they are very close in volume. Mine has a celestion G10s-50 and it is more or less the same volume as the stock DR reissues, with just a tad less headroom. Here it is miked, but used as a stage monitor. I often play with it unmiked. You just don't have the positioning luxury of a bigger amp, if you want to hear it adequately you have to point it a certain way or raise it etc..

     
  7. Dacious

    Dacious Poster Extraordinaire

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    Gotta call you on that - HRDx or BJr are more like a Bassman and a Vox/Marshall hybrid. There's no 6V6 BF in either. I agree with Deluxe Reverb suggestion but even that is too much most places. If you sit the amp flat on the floor you can have 50 loud tube watts and not hear yourself. Been there, done that.

    In the heyday of big amps most speakers weren't efficient and as power went up, voicecoil gaps were also going up so efficiency was down. Super/Twin Reverb on 6 back then would fill a room with sound but not crush people. It's also true venues were bigger and often full of people, and there were no noise laws.

    Last night through 17 watts and an efficient 10" speaker in a small bar with 20-30 people I was on 5 master volume, other guitarist with a 50 watt Katana on 25 watts and we're mostly not dimed. We sit amps on stands pointed at our heads - we have a spouse to point out noise offenders. It's amazing how you think you're not loud - but you are.

    Our drummer plays a 80s Pearl kit and he can be loud. A healthy Princeton should be able to be heard easily. If that isn't loud enough then the band won't get repeat gigs at most venues these days. We're at the stage of having to pull vocal PA volume back - they don't want it louder and I can sometimes get earpain from FOH next to me.
     
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  8. BobbyZ

    BobbyZ Doctor of Teleocity

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    I've got amps ranging from 6v6 Reverberockets that'd I'd guess put out 12 or so watts to a 100 watt Marshall and a couple of Twin Reverbs.
    One of the RRs runs G12H30 Anniversary 100db. That's the most sensitive speaker I use. Made that amp WAY louder than the original Jensen C12R. But next to the SFTR with it's inefficient Radio Shack Utahs it gets drowned out. Those speakers I'd guess are around 95 db maybe less, Greenbacks are louder.
    Speaker efficiency definitely makes a difference and on paper it looks like it'll make a small amp keep up with a big one. But doing side by side stuff tells a different story.
    I do really miss the days when you could actually crank decent sized amp though.
     
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  9. Tubetonejunkie

    Tubetonejunkie TDPRI Member

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    A couple of thoughts.....
    - different speaker could mean losing "that tone" you love so much. I have used a EV 12L SRO that was noticeably louder (more efficient) than my previous choice but it has a 'hifi' quality to it. If your playing is sloppy, it replicates that - great for learning how to get better technique but pretty humbling the first time around :(

    - you could add another princeton for added reinforcement. point one at your head with an amp stand or on a riser that is close to your ears with the sound/tone you like and the other could be equipped with a more efficient speaker to side wash the stage. Are you using a sound man? you could add monitor mix of your amp in your monitor (If Applicable)...a 2nd amp also affords a back-up amp should you blow a tube,etc...

    I've done sound for a band that liked low wattage amps - great for their sound but when the guitarist soloed, he was totally dependent on my mix for that extra DB to stand out...his boost pedal wouldn't add headroom - just more drive as he was running the amp at 3/4. No more clean headroom available.

    Just thoughts...
    Cheers!
     
  10. max_twang

    max_twang Tele-Afflicted

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    OP -- first, make sure you get the amp serviced. The lack of volume could be due to a faulty part(s). I played a non-reverb Princeton with a band for years (both in rehearsal and gigs) and it was more than loud enough.

    To make my amp more giggable, I installed an output transformer from a Deluxe (sold by Allen Amps), and installed and Emi Copperhead. These helped a lot. I also have a '70's PR with a 10" California from Weber (their version of a JBL) and that speaker is also pretty loud. Since you already have a 12" baffle, you have even more speaker options.

    Also, as Schmee mentioned, using a boost of some kind in front of the amp can really add to the volume. My amp gets *really* loud if I have a cranked dirt pedal or clean boost in front of it.
     
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  11. Hatfield92

    Hatfield92 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    No offense, but these guys saying a Princeton won’t cut it are dead wrong. OP, please note they’re in the minority.

    There has been some really good advice in this thread. You’ve just got to be able to weed it out.

    Servicing/new caps is likely in order. Make sure it’s a tech who really knows what he’s doing. That’s vital.

    More efficient speaker is a great idea. I HIGHLY recommend the Maverick, because the variable sensitivity can be really, really handy. Plus, it’s just a great sounding speaker.

    If you don’t have an amp stand, get one. One that allows you to adjust the tilt is the best. You want that speaker pointed straight at your head. And, ideally, the other guitarist in your band will have one as well, for his amp.

    Also, keep in mind, it’s much easier to hear yourself if you’re not sitting in the same part of the mix, EQ-wise, as the other guitarist. Just a little forethought and tweaking will eliminate any sonic “competition” for a foothold in the mix.
     
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  12. Burning Fingers

    Burning Fingers TDPRI Member

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    Easily done..I'm quite good at putting the wrong figures in a post now and again. :)
     
  13. Burning Fingers

    Burning Fingers TDPRI Member

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    I don't recall having any problems with my old Silverface non reverb Princeton back in the 70's.
    We had a drummer , Bass and second guitar and the Princeton cut through for solos and sat perfectly in the mix for chords. I did have it raised up 2.5 feet off the floor and the volume up around 9.
    It was fine for stage volume and I miked it through the front of house unless it was in a small venue.
    No pedals or boosters were used , it had the original speaker and all the tubes were at least 5 years old and the amp had never been serviced.
    These days if my 5E3 is drowned out by a drummer then it is goodbye heavy handed drummer...come back when you learn how to play drums in a professional manner instead of trying to show off .
     
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  14. Singin' Dave

    Singin' Dave Friend of Leo's

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    Agree with Hatfield.

    There is no way to know if that amp will work for OP until he tries the following:

    Service the amp to make sure circuit is running tip top. This should be done regardless and ASAP.

    Remove 50 year old original low efficiency (and likely a bit worn or dried-out) speaker,and insert any number of great new 10" options that are rated at say 99db or higher. OR...even better, remove and store away the old baffle and old speaker, pop in the 12" baffle with the 12" speaker you already have on it, and see if it gets you there. If not, try a more efficient 12" speaker. Cannibus Rex would be my choice for bang for buck. You're out the cost of a speaker now at most.

    And finally, yeah, raise that sucker up. All else fails, throw a mic on it.

    I'd sure as heck try all that before dropping $$ on other solutions/amps/pedals that may or may not get me where I want with the tone I want. Bird in hand man!

    A SF Princeton Non Verb is a great amp that can hang with a reasonable volume band if its running right with a newer more efficient speaker. My opinion of course, but again, you already have and like the amp. So give it a chance!
     
  15. Jeru

    Jeru Tele-Holic

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    Thanks to ALL OF YOU -- very helpful.

    Update #1 -- Cap Can is on order, not planning on using the amp so terribly much until it's in.
    Hoping also that new filter caps get the noise floor down some at the upper end of the volume register.

    Update #2 -- BBE Boosta Grande from CL is now on the pedal board. In (brief) testing
    the Boost got me a good bit of the way to where I need to be. Test was against my
    brother's PRRI using an A/B pedal. With the boost, the P-nonverb gave me a boost in
    headroom without dirtying it up too much.

    Update #3 -- The Amp's seller threw in a stand as part of the (CL) deal. I'm not overly
    excited about lugging another thing to gigs. One of the main thoughts buying the P-nonverb
    was Traveling Light. I'm more likely to just buy a PRRI/DRRI than start lugging that stand.

    Update #4 -- Looking at the following speakers to fit onto that 12" baffle that I have:
    - Eminence Red White and Blues Patriot Series
    - Eminence Maverick
    - Etc, etc.

    Update #5 - I'm building a 2x6V6 amp from an old Allied Radio/Knight Chassis. Pics are below.
    May just be the thing.

    Again -- Thanks all for your thoughtful and helpful responses.

    JR


    IMG-5277.JPG IMG-5275.jpg Knight 11.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  16. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Holic

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    re: update #3- several here have mentioned getting the amp pointed at your head. The first time I tilted my amp back, I was shocked at how much treble and detail I had been missing, poor people sitting in the front row. Not wanting to lug another piece of equipment, I opted for the classic Fender tilt back legs. Not cheap but always there- nothing to forget or lug back and forth. Just tilting back about 35 degrees makes a huge difference. Also spreads your sound in the room better.
     
  17. Hatfield92

    Hatfield92 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    The way my amp stand folds up, I can just put my arm through and carry it on my shoulder like a purse. I can load and unload all my equipment in two trips. To me, a stand is essential. I can hear myself more clearly that way than back when I had a 4x10 60w Concert sitting on the floor at my feet.
     
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  18. Jeru

    Jeru Tele-Holic

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    I'll look into a folding/compact stand today. (The one I have is pretty cumbersome,
    should prolly sell it). I have three gigs coming up in Feb/March (that's a lot for me).

    Playing this in the basement and A/B ing it with the PRRI, Honestly, there's basically
    no way that that any sound guy is going to ALLOW the P-noverb at full song with
    this (BBE) boost in front of it. SO, it'll be all about me hearing the sound that it is
    making
    -- getting it pointed at my head.

    You folks are great.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
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  19. jsnwhite619

    jsnwhite619 Friend of Leo's

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    I used to play lead in a band a few years ago, and I would always give the singer hell at soundcheck. He sang country and played acoustic guitar, and his monitor would be the loudest thing on stage by far. Which means everybody else has to get louder to compensate, and so on. He could not wrap his head around the fact that his ears weren't located on his knees... He would put the stage monitor right at his feet and complain that he couldn't hear. And, when I moved it back an extra 12-18" and told him to play his guitar again, it would blow him away. Sound is a lot more directional than most people realize.

    Every guitar player should own a 10-12ft cable for no other reason than actually walking out in front of your amp and hearing what your volume & tone really sounds like. I'm willing to bet that it's usually louder & brighter than you thought it was.
     
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  20. Hatfield92

    Hatfield92 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    Here’s an Amazon link to the stand I use. I bought it about a year ago, and it’s been great. Works well with a Princeton or a Deluxe Reverb. It was also the best deal I could find at the time on an adjustable stand that looked reasonably well built.

    I don’t know how tall you are, but I’m 6’2”. On small stages, I have to tilt the amp stand so that the amp is practically on its back lol.
     
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