Sound man keeps telling us we are to bottom heavy I think he ether has a tin ear or is NUTS!!

Discussion in 'Worship Service Players' started by Ascension, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    Keeps telling us we need to go quieter and are "overpowering the room" would be surprised here if we are running as much as 85 DB. This is a new raw clip I uploaded this morning. This is what the real FOH sound was yesterday. The other clips were enhanced with some EQ reverb and other things this is just raw.

    For reference this was in our Fellowship hall for a Christmas Brunch service running super low volume with real unmiced amps and we mixed this ourselves because he wasn't there. To me this sounds MUCH MUCH better than the sanctuary recording running silent stage on the full system!!

    What say you??
    We as the band a pretty frustrated at this point will tell you that!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  2. eallen

    eallen Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Well, a recording frame a video came mic would be impossible to determine any accuracy of a room. If you want to know what decibels are being run how about getting a meter and seeing. Who ever is in charge can then give a target setting. We have a list for our techs for decibels we want for our room so it is not up to discretion, or a bad hearing day. One for the speaker, one for worship, one for videos... we target 90 for worship for our room. For some rooms, 90 might be blaring. For other rooms much less works.

    People performing on stage cannot tell what it sounds like in the room because they aren't in the room. It sounds like a good leader needs to define and coordinate what is best.

    We haven't had amps on our stage for years because it is impossible for a sound tech to control what is heard in many average size worship rooms. It can be a concert on the stage and a traffic wreck in the audience. Sometimes it is a self proclaimed Jimmy Hs ruining a set for everyone by thinking they are the center of attention. Other times it is $100 amp cranked up and sounding like crap while the $100,000 house system they could have sounded good in has their channel muted because of volume. Sound is always a problem in worship environments without a well lead cohesive team.
     
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  3. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    Zoom Q3 HD and a pretty accurate little recorder to ear exactly what the crowd does + this morning ran a nice field recorder also. Same camera both clips BTW though the clip from the fellowship hall sounded better. Our team is well lead and quite cohesive but our sound man fights us constantly.
    in particular wanted to hear the FOH and how we were sitting in the mix as had an old friend join us here a few week ago as our keyboard player. Wes and i have played together for many ears in different settings.
    Another clip and again Tom keeps griping we are to bottom heavy and over powering this room. My take is we are running to low in volume and sound like a transistor radio! I know I hate how he has my guitar eq in the in ear system and also out front.
    Clip

    Doesn't matter which amp I run he eq's it thin.
    Same recorder same amp and cab amp unmiced outdoors
     
  4. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    For reference this is my real normal guitar tone from my old Church. Here I am running the little Mesa Boogie Subway miced at super low volume on stage but can actually get a bigger tone with my Boogie DC 5 head and a 1/12 miced. Have my cab off stage in the back BTW.
     
  5. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    Wow just listened to this clip for the first time on my nice phones what a MESS!
    Bass way to boomey no mid no highs just dull thud guitar all mid to high mid on the electric acoustic shrill and piercing keys way outta whack. Man that was just a real acoustic mess.
    Like the sound guy as a person but man he has got no EAR!!! Add he is a control freak and---.
    He was out for a little while with a minor medical thing and we had some local guys come in and help us a little with the sound. Now that he is back sucks again!!
    We have a good solid band and have GREAT vocals when every one is there so something has got to give here!!
     
  6. dougstrum

    dougstrum Tele-Afflicted

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    Ha! Your sound guy should get together with ours, perhaps between the two of them they could get a good balance~ not to much, not to little but just right:rolleyes:
     
  7. JuneauMike

    JuneauMike Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've always found that the best academic studies are the ones that confirm my bias.

    New Study Confirms Everything The Sound Guy's Fault
    August 28th, 2017
    [​IMG]

    U.S.—A new study performed by LifeWay Research confirmed Monday that absolutely everything that went wrong at the last church service you attended was the sound guy’s fault.

    The study looked at worship slide misfires, lyrical errors, broken microphones, bad song selection, faulty theology, bad preaching, lack of commitments to Christ, and more, and concluded that every single one of the issues was the fault of the guy sitting in the sound booth.

    “Many people have historically assumed that everything is the pastor’s fault, but the data doesn’t corroborate this hypothesis,” head researcher Paul Lyle told reporters. “Every single problem in a church service can be laid at the feet of the sound guy. It’s science.”

    One church in the study was exhibiting a high number of off-key notes in the worship songs, and researchers were able to isolate the problem, confirming that once again, it was the sound guy’s fault. The church also had poor lighting and bad foyer coffee, both of which showed evidence of being the wrongdoing of the sound guy.

    The study further recommends that any time something goes wrong at church, every person in the service should turn their heads and look judgmentally at the sound guy, since it’s most definitely his fault.

    https://babylonbee.com/news/new-study-confirms-everything-sound-guys-fault
     
  8. eallen

    eallen Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    When I was speaking of leadership I wasn't speaking of the band but the church leader over the band/sound/worship service. That person should be bringing this together and dealing with the issue rather than letting conflict stew between people.

    It could be your sound guy has a hearing deficiency in the upper range. There are just a lot of church sound people who shouldn't be running sound and the entire experience is lost because a leader doesn't address it. Maybe it is a training or direction need. Sometimes it is a replacement need. Many church sound people know nothing about music or mixing. I had one once tell me he didn't even like music. He was quickly allowed to not like it in the audience.
     
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  9. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    I generally hate absolute rules. (unless they are GOD'S). There's freedom in music though.

    Most people wouldn't know what good music AND SOUND was if it slapped them. How do I know this: listen to them use their car stereo...

    I always ask soundmen: "What's the last C.D. or album you bought or downloaded...?" The answer is 100% "What?!"
    Which explains their ability to mix and study the science of sound.
     
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  10. Special Tom

    Special Tom Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    I say "What?" quite a bit. Now I know that it's the fault of many sound guys over they years. I am seeing a lawyer for a class action suit against all sound guys. If you want to be included in the settlement I can have my lawyer contact you.
     
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  11. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    I've played in one church over the years where the sound man was recruited by the band and worked for the band, just like it would be done in the real world. It was a great experience. We would sit down and talk about what we wanted from an artistic point of view anytime we started working on new songs, and since the sound guy was a member of the band, he had equal say. However, he always asked how we wanted things when he had questions. Every other church I've played in, the sound man just as well be "mixing" music from a thumb drive or a CD because, in my experience, they never care to know what the band wants and universally know better than the band.

    Therein lies the problem. When the sound guy and the band have different ideas who wins? The band can do the job without the sound guy, but the sound guy can't do jack without the band. So when the sound guy runs the show, it is the tail wagging the dog. I've also run into situations where part of the church leadership i.e. head pastor wants a certain "sound" and that is in conflict with the WL and the band, so he just instructs the sound guy to mix it like he wants it, in spite of what the musicians are doing on stage. That's fun too. I've come to the conclusion that if the sound guy does not answer to the band, it is going to be a bumpy ride, and one that I increasingly am unwilling to take.
     
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  12. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    On Thursday night I am bringing in the old Sound man from my former band and we are going to sort some things out.
    The root issue is that we don't have anybody else right now that is willing to run sound.
    Tom our sound guy I like personally but just will not listen to us as the worship team and work with us. Billy the worship leader and the Pastor have had a number of conversations on it all and we are right now stuck here.
    Just added an old friend to the band as our keyboard player and he brought his 2 boards in and that really made this come to the surface again.
    What we need is a real sound man who will be part of the BAND instead of fighting the band!! Until we can find one we will do the best we can with what we have.
     
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  13. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    Just so that it's clear. In my above post I was not implying that the WL and band should necessarily have "veto" power over the head pastor. What I meant is that it is highly dysfunctional for the head pastor to instruct the sound guy separate and apart from the band, and not discuss musical and artistic direction with the WL's in the band.

    In my current church, the sound guys control the "feel" and "sound" of our corporate worship. No matter what our arrangements are, no matter what our instrumentation is, those sound guys make what we do sound like 1970's church music. It's like listening to spiritual barbershop sung over piano and an indistinct mash of other non recognizable instruments in a backing wall of mud. Makes me want to vomit. The audio "engineer" has a tremendous amount of influence over the energy and feel of corporate worship. They can pump it up, or they can basically kill it. None of our sound people appear to have any idea of what that means.
     
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  14. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    Got you and we are in the same situation. Our Pastor and us as the Worship team are on the same page. Sound guy is just not capable and has a tin ear then add we have no one else who is ether willing or is capable to do that job. Bringing Todd my old band sound man in on Thursday to let him really work on gains and EQ shelving. With it being a digital board it drives me nuts trying to wok the eq and then save everything. Why I absolutely HATE buying high tec digital equipment in churches with no trained sound staff and no $ to hire one!!
    Se me in front a good analog set up and I'm a wizard digital stuff however ----.
     
  15. Uncle Butch

    Uncle Butch Tele-Meister

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    For years I've been saying that a sound tech is, or should be a part of the band, and that includes showing up for practice and knowing the songs. The problem is, we are all volunteers and not everyone has the same level of commitment or skill. I just started playing with a new church this summer and just officially joined three weeks ago. The head AV guy goes out of his way to accommodate me, the problem is he isn't always running sound as he has many other duties on Sunday. Worst case is when the preachers nephew "Skippy" runs sound, he basically turns on the board and we hope the presets got saved from practice. He just sits there looking at his phone or talking to the girls. Some days are diamonds, some days are coal. We do the best we can with what we have and hope it sounds OK out front. There are some battles you will never win, but we keep on trying just the same.
     
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  16. GoldieLocks

    GoldieLocks Tele-Afflicted

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    I never understand the hate and angst soundmen have: I LOVE being a soundman (on rare occasion... although I did it for my Blues Band for 20 years.)

    Mixing music and bringing out the best in the band is a joy (and turning down the weak links...). I've worked with a LOT of soundman over the last 30 years - almost all of them have just been LAZY. I even love reading sound magazines and getting books by professional soundmen and engineers/producers.

    I'm not happy until everyone's monitors sound great and they can play their hearts out. I'll deal with the room later. (I'm known for telling drummers to play LESS and LOUDER! always works. And i've never had to tell a guitar player to turn their amp down... just direct it elsewhere.)
     
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  17. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    I understand and WE understand things many others do not because we have been on BOTH sides of the board!! Where you get into problems is when you have someone who is running a system who doesn't have a clue what it's like to be on the other side of the board on stage and doesn't care to.
    I may have stepped in it tonight as with my old sound guy it was a whole other world and after tonight this band will never go back willingly to where we had been. It was far far worse that I knew and in about half an hour Todd had the system sounding like it should sound. How the sound man we have is going to react when he comes in Sunday I have no idea but we not only saved the presets in the board but we also backed up all the changes on a thumb drive. After tonight this band flat won't go back to where things were so---.
    Went from all of it sounding like a bad cheap radio to us suddenly sounding both in the FOH and our in ear system like a real band on a real system. It was inspiring it was shocking even for me!!
    In particular my guitar tone went from sounding like a bee in a beer can to the type tone I normally have as in HERE! And that was not touching my amp EQ or even the mic or placement on the cab just Todd working with eq and gain at the board!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
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  18. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    Good luck. We've had a couple different very high level pro sound engineers come in twice or three times and set everything and all pre sets were saved. On average it takes about two weekends for all that to go out the window when the Tin Ear sound guy gets his hands back on the board. That is my experience
     
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  19. hotraman

    hotraman Tele-Holic

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    @Ascension
    Even though we are listening via laptop or cell phones, your band has great dynamics: that's half the battle.
    I'm no expert, but I'm currently playing at three different churches ( one where I am co director) and each room is different. The young adult service likes it loud: lots of low end.
    The other two are moderate.
    The rooms seats 300 to 500. Carpet on the floors / and drape too.
    From what I heard on the very first clip, nothing sounded too loud or overbearing: drums blended in, too. And your guitar tone blended well.

    Personally I think its a sound guy issue: movie theaters have more low end, than most churches.
    I think you are heading the right direction to bring in some outside mixing help.

    Two of my churches do a FB and YT feed of the services, so I get to hear how my guitar sits in the mix.

    For me, the lead pastor has to be on the same page as the WL, band, etc. Sometimes sound mixers mean well ( its a thankless job) and all it takes is one complaint, then they mess with the mix. I would try to train / recruit someone else, who shares the same vision that pastor, WL, band has.

    At 85 DB, that's not very loud. Though in a room with a low of wood paneling, bass may carry more than we heard on the video clips.

    Hope my insights help. Its a tough battle at times: soundmen vs band. But it doesn't have to be.

    Steve
     
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  20. Ascension

    Ascension Tele-Afflicted

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    Steve thanks for that brother. I have kind of been the bridge between the sound guy Tom and the Worship leader but had absolutely no idea how bad things were on the way he was running the board until last night. Also did not know how bad the riff was between the worship leader and the Sound guy.
    Pastor and I are talking tomorrow but something here has to give. Will keep you guys posted.
    Will say this this team has far more potential than I knew because when we could actually feel decent about how we sounded and really hear each other it was amazing how it all suddenly clicked. We began playing as a band stopped over playing so much and everything changed. Have to find a solution here as this line up has way to much potential to see go to waste! In particular after i brought Wes who I have played with off and on for years in. Wes is a KILLER keyboard player songwriter and also plays Native American Wood flute and percussion very well.
    Live clip of us just flowing from a Furnace running Flute and he and i tag teaming a little.
    https://app.box.com/shared/s8vm6oexlv
    Was a piece we really needed in this team!
    Hopefully can get a recording Sunday that will reflect what we were sounding like Thursday night. Should have recorded us then!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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