Sorry guys, my phone ditched out. Just got home from a month tour. I'll post my experiences and knowledge tomorrow.
Songwriter royalties question
- Thread starter Del Pickup
- Start date
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telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
Really man, if you truly did get back from touring that's pretty mean to rub it in that way. I take it your not a humble guy but it could be hard to read your tone through an Internet forum so either "haha" or "wth" depending how you actually meant it.
telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
You and Guitarzan are right. I'm only 21 but I'm so trapped in a past nostalgic state of mind I often don't realize it's not the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's now. Lord, to have live in those decades......
Kristofferson had known Cash for several years prior to landing on his property... so, it wasn't totally a 'cold call'... AND>>>> Cash wasn't home when Kris got there....
Cash made up a tall tale about Kris landing with his guitar and a can of beer in his hand... but it wasn't true.
Kris knew Cash because he was the janitor at the studio (and wildly out of place in a lot of ways) and when Cash had a moment, he'd pitch songs...
pretty normal stuff. Kristofferson is an amazing person who led a life that is more like a novel than reality... but his songwriting was incredible and I believe he would have made it with or without the helicopter.
Chud
Poster Extraordinaire
Yer obviously new around these parts. Lol.
Edit: added a few more smilies and stuff to make sure my meaning is clear...
rofl lmao
No, I really did get back off a month long run, today. Not sure what you meant by "rub it in"? Or not humble?
It's just my job man. Some people cook, some people crunch numbers. I play music. You can do it too, if you wanna live in a van, not see much of your family, eat like crap and brush your teeth in parking lots. All because you're sick. An addict. You'd rather live that way than go one day without playing. It's real glamorous, lemme tell ya. Do I love it? Hell yeah. But do not mistake what I do for riding in a private bus or jet with catered meals and massages.
Anyhow, seriously, my phone completely ditched out earlier. Barely working now. Horrific storms here in Denver. Bad stuff. Reception is terrible, Internet barely working out east town where I am. And, since I just got home, and I'm gonna spend tonite hanging with the wife and kids.
I'll pick up with you guys tomorrow on the writing thing.
telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
Hey buddy, that remark about rubbing it in was more about me personally than you, because I do want to do that. Kind of like when someone has candy and you want candy and they go "this candy is so good" im glad you get to do what you love, my man. That's what aspire to do. I've already lived out of a jeep a few times with my daddy when times were tough before he died, so I'm used to that stuff. Just haven't done the tour yet haha.
It's just hard to tell someone's tone through the Internet. Now that you've replied you seem pretty damn cool man. No hard feelings by me just miscommunication via Internet. I hate that. Sometimes I read something 5 times to try to understand the true meaning but then again I'm sure y'all have to do it to me too.
jvin248
Doctor of Teleocity
Ok, so the old song writing model has all those gate keepers with interest in only letting a few cute girls through the ropes to the big gig. The Internet has given artists a direct ear to the end consumer. How can independent artists utilize Youtube, Amazon, iTunes, etc etc? How does that model work? How could it work?
In book publishing, the typical royalty rates to traditional published authors is around 17% of sales. Independent authors can get a royalty of 70% from several outlets, one of which is that place called Amazon that seems to sell a few books (a book ranked in Amazon's top twenty is selling around 10,000 copies a day). So for an independent author to 'make it' they don't need nearly as many buyers as the traditionally published author does.
(highjack question for the radio plays ... do some bands charge less for their songs so the radio stations put them higher on the rotation list?)
In book publishing, the typical royalty rates to traditional published authors is around 17% of sales. Independent authors can get a royalty of 70% from several outlets, one of which is that place called Amazon that seems to sell a few books (a book ranked in Amazon's top twenty is selling around 10,000 copies a day). So for an independent author to 'make it' they don't need nearly as many buyers as the traditionally published author does.
(highjack question for the radio plays ... do some bands charge less for their songs so the radio stations put them higher on the rotation list?)
CNILE
Tele-Meister
I am going to let Jakedog break the news to you, as he has been here longer than I, but I will say this much-
After all the Pirahnas finished eating the meat, I got a total of about 8500 bucks. That was after paying for EVERYTHING, including the fluffer, and the 17% "lossage". That was in the mid-90's. It could be different now, I retired in 1999.
I get 6 cents per "needle drop", and as it's the theme song for a popular radio show in a major SW market, (run every Sunday night), my quarterly checks are about 125 bucks. I have let my late brother, who was the bassist and didn't get anything, have the checks. Now his widow gets them. I haven't seen one for nearly 15 years.
It's only rock and roll.
After all the Pirahnas finished eating the meat, I got a total of about 8500 bucks. That was after paying for EVERYTHING, including the fluffer, and the 17% "lossage". That was in the mid-90's. It could be different now, I retired in 1999.
I get 6 cents per "needle drop", and as it's the theme song for a popular radio show in a major SW market, (run every Sunday night), my quarterly checks are about 125 bucks. I have let my late brother, who was the bassist and didn't get anything, have the checks. Now his widow gets them. I haven't seen one for nearly 15 years.
It's only rock and roll.
Great thread, hope it stays alive. Bring your war stories and industry tips & tricks. Me, I'm too old to even dream anymore, but do it for the kids 
I started making music way too late, but I'll keep at it as long as I can just because it's so much fun.
Not expecting any monetary success though. I released a single on spotify, itunes etc a while ago, and it has so far generated a revenue of a staggering €1.25 still a bit to go to reach the €10 it cost to publish it. And the €500 or so it cost to record it
I started making music way too late, but I'll keep at it as long as I can just because it's so much fun.
Not expecting any monetary success though. I released a single on spotify, itunes etc a while ago, and it has so far generated a revenue of a staggering €1.25
still a bit to go to reach the €10 it cost to publish it. And the €500 or so it cost to record it 
drmcclainphd
Tele-Afflicted
File for copyright protection at http://www.copyright.gov/docs/fees.html Standard application online = $55.00
Once covered, look for publishers who are looking for submissions. For country stuff, check out Weaver of Words: http://weaverofwordsmusic.com/ H.R. Cook is one of the more upright producers. He's attached to BMG Chrysalis now, but he's still got his name on it, and that means something to him.
Songwriting in Nashville. Hmmm. Can you get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars? Yes. You can. People do. Will you or I? Probably not.
To get a hit, you have to get a cut. Getting a cut (a major artist to record your song) is next to impossible. Once it's cut, it has to make it onto the album, then it has to be released as a single. Getting paid at the level we're talking about requires, quite literally, a perfect storm.
How do you get your song to the artist you want to cut it? The short answer is, you don't. This is business. What do YOU do when somebody walks up to your door selling something? My first reaction is to get rid of them by whatever means necessary. Theirs is often worse.
These artists all have producers they work with. Producers work with publishing firms. When a big artist goes to make a record, they spend a ton of time pre-production selecting songs for the project. Sometimes, depending on the artist, they don't even get a ton of say in it. Many of them don't want a ton of say in it. They just want a big hit. They don't care what it is. They trust the producer to bring them that. The producer brings in a tune, says "here's your first single from this record". And it gets cut.
The best shot you have at getting something on a record, is to work as a writer for a publishing house. Easier said than done, especially these days. Going into Nashville and trying to get a job as a songwriter is akin to walking into Texas Stadium and asking to be the Cowboys QB. They'll kinda smile, say "sure thing kid! Right through that door!". You'll get all excited, then realize after you've gone through the door, that it leads back to the parking lot and locks behind you.
You see, they don't need help. They have a building full of writers. Their brothers are writers. Their neighbors are writers. Their wife's hairdresser is a writer. They are bombarded twenty four hours a day. There's no room at the inn. And really, if there is an opening, the hairdresser is gonna get it before you do, just to shut the wife up.
If you somehow DO get a really good song in front of these people, I mean a really great one that there's no way they can pass up, you'll get the poker face. They'll say they aren't interested. Then before the sound of your footsteps has even died down, their gonna be talking to their writers. They will say "this is fantastic. you need to write me something right now, that's exactly like this, but not enough to get sued".
If you want in to the club, you need a way in to the club. You need somebody to bring you in. Like a fraternity, or secret order of the loyal water buffalos or something. And if you can find that, don't think it won't cost you. An arm and a leg.
I made a record back in the 2000's with a pretty heavy Nashville cat. We're actually good friends. I like him a lot. He was digging on a lot of my tunes, and offered to pitch some of them for me. To help get me some cuts. For a 50% cut and a co-write credit. Then the producer gets a cut and a co-write. The artist too. The publisher, the list goes on. There ain't much left for you at the end of the day. If you've got a legit pie on your hands, everybody in the chain WILL get their piece. And nobody thinks it's ugly or unfair. It's just how it works there. Passing it up was a tough decision for me to make. I'm not gonna lie. At the back of my mind though, was this constant nagging about the co-writes. I knew going in that I had good stuff. And I knew I wasn't keeping all the money. I knew everybody would get their piece. I hadn't counted on people wanting co-writes on stuff they had nothing to do with writing. That really rubbed me wrong. And still does. I can live with giving half the money away to get off the ground. I can't live with saying somebody helped write my song when they didn't.
Eventually, if you can keep getting subsequent cuts and moving forward, you can get a rep, call your own shots, and make real money. It's totally possible.
Think about the aforementioned .06 a needle drop. If you get a major hit on your hands, that's huge. Say there's a thousand radio stations playing it 5-10 times a day. Then there's the snippets that get played on radio and TV to promote the concert. Then there's the CSI episode where it's played in the background at the party. Then the DH for the Tigers uses it as his at bat music. Then some trucker is listening to it on the radio in twenty seconds of the big summer blockbuster movie.
That crap adds up. THAT'S how you end up with $400k royalty checks.
Getting there? You have better odds of getting that money by playing the lottery.
I also left out- "unsolicited material". It's the kiss of death. It's what gets people in charge of finding writers and songs fired. Forever. Unsolicited material is a HUGE liability in the music business. One to be avoided at all costs.
Unsolicited material is you and your songs. The law of the land to manage liability is- if they want your crap, they'll ask for it. If you want them to want your stuff, you have to convince them to ask you for it. But it's a vicious circle. Chances are better than good that if you do get to submit something, and they like it, we'll be back where we were above. Where they will just have their guys do it the same but different, and not to have to split any profits with a new guy.
The days of walking up to an artist on the street and getting them to listen to your song are over. Forever. They're not coming back.
Also, a final word of advice- if you wanna get into this, have a LOT of material. Think of it as owning a car lot.
Say you have two cars on your lot- a big red one, and a little blue one. They're really nice. But that's all you've got.
Guy with the lot across the street has 10 different models, in ten colors each.
Guy number three needs a car. Where is he gonna shop?
To get a hit, you have to get a cut. Getting a cut (a major artist to record your song) is next to impossible. Once it's cut, it has to make it onto the album, then it has to be released as a single. Getting paid at the level we're talking about requires, quite literally, a perfect storm.
How do you get your song to the artist you want to cut it? The short answer is, you don't. This is business. What do YOU do when somebody walks up to your door selling something? My first reaction is to get rid of them by whatever means necessary. Theirs is often worse.
These artists all have producers they work with. Producers work with publishing firms. When a big artist goes to make a record, they spend a ton of time pre-production selecting songs for the project. Sometimes, depending on the artist, they don't even get a ton of say in it. Many of them don't want a ton of say in it. They just want a big hit. They don't care what it is. They trust the producer to bring them that. The producer brings in a tune, says "here's your first single from this record". And it gets cut.
The best shot you have at getting something on a record, is to work as a writer for a publishing house. Easier said than done, especially these days. Going into Nashville and trying to get a job as a songwriter is akin to walking into Texas Stadium and asking to be the Cowboys QB. They'll kinda smile, say "sure thing kid! Right through that door!". You'll get all excited, then realize after you've gone through the door, that it leads back to the parking lot and locks behind you.
You see, they don't need help. They have a building full of writers. Their brothers are writers. Their neighbors are writers. Their wife's hairdresser is a writer. They are bombarded twenty four hours a day. There's no room at the inn. And really, if there is an opening, the hairdresser is gonna get it before you do, just to shut the wife up.
If you somehow DO get a really good song in front of these people, I mean a really great one that there's no way they can pass up, you'll get the poker face. They'll say they aren't interested. Then before the sound of your footsteps has even died down, their gonna be talking to their writers. They will say "this is fantastic. you need to write me something right now, that's exactly like this, but not enough to get sued".
If you want in to the club, you need a way in to the club. You need somebody to bring you in. Like a fraternity, or secret order of the loyal water buffalos or something. And if you can find that, don't think it won't cost you. An arm and a leg.
I made a record back in the 2000's with a pretty heavy Nashville cat. We're actually good friends. I like him a lot. He was digging on a lot of my tunes, and offered to pitch some of them for me. To help get me some cuts. For a 50% cut and a co-write credit. Then the producer gets a cut and a co-write. The artist too. The publisher, the list goes on. There ain't much left for you at the end of the day. If you've got a legit pie on your hands, everybody in the chain WILL get their piece. And nobody thinks it's ugly or unfair. It's just how it works there. Passing it up was a tough decision for me to make. I'm not gonna lie. At the back of my mind though, was this constant nagging about the co-writes. I knew going in that I had good stuff. And I knew I wasn't keeping all the money. I knew everybody would get their piece. I hadn't counted on people wanting co-writes on stuff they had nothing to do with writing. That really rubbed me wrong. And still does. I can live with giving half the money away to get off the ground. I can't live with saying somebody helped write my song when they didn't.
Eventually, if you can keep getting subsequent cuts and moving forward, you can get a rep, call your own shots, and make real money. It's totally possible.
Think about the aforementioned .06 a needle drop. If you get a major hit on your hands, that's huge. Say there's a thousand radio stations playing it 5-10 times a day. Then there's the snippets that get played on radio and TV to promote the concert. Then there's the CSI episode where it's played in the background at the party. Then the DH for the Tigers uses it as his at bat music. Then some trucker is listening to it on the radio in twenty seconds of the big summer blockbuster movie.
That crap adds up. THAT'S how you end up with $400k royalty checks.
Getting there? You have better odds of getting that money by playing the lottery.
I also left out- "unsolicited material". It's the kiss of death. It's what gets people in charge of finding writers and songs fired. Forever. Unsolicited material is a HUGE liability in the music business. One to be avoided at all costs.
Unsolicited material is you and your songs. The law of the land to manage liability is- if they want your crap, they'll ask for it. If you want them to want your stuff, you have to convince them to ask you for it. But it's a vicious circle. Chances are better than good that if you do get to submit something, and they like it, we'll be back where we were above. Where they will just have their guys do it the same but different, and not to have to split any profits with a new guy.
The days of walking up to an artist on the street and getting them to listen to your song are over. Forever. They're not coming back.
Also, a final word of advice- if you wanna get into this, have a LOT of material. Think of it as owning a car lot.
Say you have two cars on your lot- a big red one, and a little blue one. They're really nice. But that's all you've got.
Guy with the lot across the street has 10 different models, in ten colors each.
Guy number three needs a car. Where is he gonna shop?
Chud
Poster Extraordinaire
telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
Great post jakedog. It's hard but can be done. I also read that you never ever bad mouth anyone in Nashville if your trying to make it because it gets around and you get no where.
telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
I also want to add one last last thing to this thread. It's really sad how the music business is now. Back in the day artist like Faron Young, Hank Garland, Lefty Frizzell, etc would help new artist out teach them ropes, help them get gigs and everything. Now nobody will help nobody out unless they are already famous or rich. What the h**l happened to the world?
Guitarzan
Poster Extraordinaire
People find it hard to believe what GS is saying above when I tell them. It is the way it has been a long time, and the guys that came up through the ranks and suffered it have no desire to change it. They give in and become part of it, and shake down for songwriting credit and publishing.
It is a better business decision for a recording artist to write and publish the works that go on a recording. He owns a catalog of copyrights that will provide passive income through royalties for some time in his life. Thus, when his best days are over, he still may be getting "mailbox money" in the form of royalties.
The downside of the recording artist writing and publishing is the loss of mechanical royalties through the ubiquitous "controlled composition" clause in recording contracts. The clause essentially says that if the recording artist "controls" the song in any of the defined manners, which may include relatives having writing and publishing, then the label does not pay mechanical royalties for use of the songs. There is a statutory rate for mech royalties, and labels generally want to negotiate a license for 3/4 of the statutory rate and change the payment terms (to quarterly) and limit audit rights.
The label's rationale is that it simply makes no sense for it to have to pay mechanical royalties to an artist that is getting royalties on recording sales and whom it has to support. But the scenario of control of the composition by the record label belies the contention. Most publishers are now owned by labels and they want the sister entities to work and support one another to keep money in house. But do you believe that publishing executives with bonuses/compensation based on performance in their contracts want to grant mechanical licenses to its sister label with no compensation? Of course they would not work hard to find songs for the label only to license them for nothing and not contribute to their own company's income and performance compensation. The sister gets paid.
Guitarzan
Poster Extraordinaire
The reason that artists, labels, publishers, etc. restrict unsolicited material is that it is in their legal interest. A system in place helps rebut allegations of access in copyright infringement suits.
Everyone in the industry would rather restrict submissions to a permission basis and have a written record.
Read up on access here:
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/y..._practice_series/elements_of_a_copyright.html
Everyone in the industry would rather restrict submissions to a permission basis and have a written record.
Read up on access here:
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/y..._practice_series/elements_of_a_copyright.html
Guitarzan
Poster Extraordinaire
Chris Stapleton has had a remarkable number of songs recorded in the last decade or so and an appreciable number of them have been hits on commercial radio.
I believe it would be interesting to sit down and have a frank discussion with whit about his experiences with the dream machine in Nashville.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6553820/chris-stapleton-key-songs
I believe it would be interesting to sit down and have a frank discussion with whit about his experiences with the dream machine in Nashville.
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6553820/chris-stapleton-key-songs
telecaster1234
Friend of Leo's
Sorry for over posting but this thread and jakedogs last post made me think of something that happened to me in November 2012. I was 18.
When I was 16 in high school I took art class and I am pretty good artist (I hate saying good things about myself) anyway I had to do a portrait assignment and I chose a picture of Johnny Cash. It was pretty big 18"x24" I think. So I drew it.
Well in my hometown two years later Joanne Cash (his sister) was coming to a seminar at a women's retreat to speak. My maw maw went to the church with the people who owned and were over it. She talked them at church all the time and they told her to tell me to come up and show it to Joanne and she could sign it.
So I did. I went up and met her and she was really nice. I told I loved playing music more than anything. When she seen the picture she kind of took me over to the side and was talking to me alone and said how great it was and looked like a photograph. She started crying a little and told me to always keep looking toward the light and going forward.
She signed it and we talked some more, she then went to give her speak. Well I started thinking she really seemed to like me and that picture a lot. She kept staring at it. So I went and told the woman over it that I would just like to give Joanne that picture of Johnny if she thought she would want it. She replied instantly oh yes she would.
So they took it up on stage behind the stand and she had no idea. When they called her up they said first we have something a young man wants to give you. They pulled it out and she started smiling and crying. She told me thank you and made me stand up in front of 300-400 women. I'm the only dude there. It was a cool moment.
I said all that to say this. It's all about connections and Joanne makes records and has ties to the studios through herself and her brother. I wonder if I contacted her, if she was willing, if she would be a connection that could possibly get me in the door?
When I was 16 in high school I took art class and I am pretty good artist (I hate saying good things about myself) anyway I had to do a portrait assignment and I chose a picture of Johnny Cash. It was pretty big 18"x24" I think. So I drew it.
Well in my hometown two years later Joanne Cash (his sister) was coming to a seminar at a women's retreat to speak. My maw maw went to the church with the people who owned and were over it. She talked them at church all the time and they told her to tell me to come up and show it to Joanne and she could sign it.
So I did. I went up and met her and she was really nice. I told I loved playing music more than anything. When she seen the picture she kind of took me over to the side and was talking to me alone and said how great it was and looked like a photograph. She started crying a little and told me to always keep looking toward the light and going forward.
She signed it and we talked some more, she then went to give her speak. Well I started thinking she really seemed to like me and that picture a lot. She kept staring at it. So I went and told the woman over it that I would just like to give Joanne that picture of Johnny if she thought she would want it. She replied instantly oh yes she would.
So they took it up on stage behind the stand and she had no idea. When they called her up they said first we have something a young man wants to give you. They pulled it out and she started smiling and crying. She told me thank you and made me stand up in front of 300-400 women. I'm the only dude there. It was a cool moment.
I said all that to say this. It's all about connections and Joanne makes records and has ties to the studios through herself and her brother. I wonder if I contacted her, if she was willing, if she would be a connection that could possibly get me in the door?
