Song Lyrics as Evidence in a Criminal Case

[johnny k]

You shouldn't mix what one person sings and what he does / did. Just like actors are not the people they portray. Is sly the real rambo ? What if he is involved in a criminal case, will you judge him because of his actions or because rambo was a murderer ?

Same for the lyrics. People being influenced by lyrics to commit suicide or anything else ?
The problem doesn't come from the lyrics, nor shakespeare's hamlet, nor cannibal corpse songs.

 

[Eddiebaby1]

Shame the jury didn't listen to 'Hurricane' first time round.

 

[PoorNoodle]

So if I committed a murder and then I painted a picture of the crime which contained information that only someone who was there would know, that painting would be irrelevant in court? Or it would only be relevant if police required every crime suspect to paint a picture?
Maybe I’m missing something from the point you’re making

Well, did you? You have now admitted it in public on a guitar forum? Can this be understood as an admission of guilt on your part? Or would that be a ludicrous way of thinking?

I think you’re missing that if the only evidence you have is a lyric or a painting or guitar forum post then, as a DA, your have a very weak case. If you had DNA evidence and a witness, the painting might make for a stronger case…but if you have DNA and a witness, why do you need the painting or lyric?

 

[JIMMY JAZZMAN]

I'd rather see you dead, little girl, then to be with another man? Really. Beatles.

 

[Red Ryder]

So if I committed a murder and then I painted a picture of the crime which contained information that only someone who was there would know, the linethat painting would be irrelevant in court? Or it would only be relevant if police required every crime suspect to paint a picture?
Maybe I’m missing something from the point you’re making

What about the line "I started a joke"? Would I be required to tell a joke in court? What if it was a bad joke, would the case be thrown out? This is confusing.

 

[Manual Slim]

I'd rather see you dead, little girl, then to be with another man? Really. Beatles.

 

[Linderflomann]

 

[Red Ryder]

What about "Hey Joe where you going with that gum in your hair". That's a sticky situation.

 

[buster poser]

As a DA, why would you rely on lyrics as evidence? Don’t you having anything more conclusive? If lyrics are a reliable admission of guilt then why don’t the police request people to compose a song during interrogations to describe their deeds?

They're not relying solely on that and they do have much more that's conclusive, if we're talking about Young Thug. 28 people getting hit with RICO charges doesn't happen on the basis of lyrics.

Like OP, I don't know much about the case either which is why I don't have strident opinions about it, but I agree people shouldn't be thrown in jail for song lyrics and I don't think they are. I do think if you are on a literal record saying "yes I sell drugs and here are some of my friends who help me," and they have other pieces of evidence, it's fair game, regardless of what I think about the drug war.

Of course, this is always going to be the real issue around rap music. Completely unsurprising.

In one study LaPolt cited, participants were presented with an identical set of song lyrics — but when told they were rap lyrics and not country/folk, they were likely to find the words violent and autobiographical.

Plenty of good info about the case in the same article.

Rappers' Own Lyrics Are Putting Them in Jail – Now the Music Industry Is Fighting Back

www.msn.com

Tell 'em DOOM

"Rap snitches, telling all their business
Sit in the court and be their own star witness
'Do you see the perpetrator?'
'Yeah, I'm right here!'
[mess] around, get the whole label sent up for years"

 

[kctelegas]

I don't think "Wait In The Truck" could be used as evidence in a murder trial, even if it is a crime against songwriting.

 

[JIMMY JAZZMAN]

If the glove don't fit, wait a minute, that wasn't a song. Ha, ha...Sorry.

 

[Manual Slim]

They're not relying solely on that and they do have much more that's conclusive, if we're talking about Young Thug. 28 people getting hit with RICO charges doesn't happen on the basis of lyrics.

Like OP, I don't know much about the case either which is why I don't have strident opinions about it, but I agree people shouldn't be thrown in jail for song lyrics and I don't think they are. I do think if you are on a literal record saying "yes I sell drugs and here are some of my friends who help me," and they have other pieces of evidence, it's fair game, regardless of what I think about the drug war.

Of course, this is always going to be the real issue around rap music. Completely unsurprising.



Plenty of good info about the case in the same article.

Rappers' Own Lyrics Are Putting Them in Jail – Now the Music Industry Is Fighting Back

www.msn.com

Tell 'em DOOM

"Rap snitches, telling all their business
Sit in the court and be their own star witness
'Do you see the perpetrator?'
'Yeah, I'm right here!'
[mess] around, get the whole label sent up for years"

Thanks for saying this in a manner that I wouldn't have.

 

[scottser]

is this is like oj simpson being acquitted of murdering his wife, then being party to publishing a hypothetical confession?

 

[Ron R]

This will probably be very unpopular but ....... I have little respect for any artist that records something they don't believe in or agree with. So ..... yes. I could see someone using the work of an artist as an example of their beliefs or their take on "right and wrong". Because of the average age of buyers of new music I have to place a responsibility for song content on the artist. New music influences those who will one day assume positions of power in this world. To knowingly create content that could subvert the tenets of right and wrong in the minds that own the future is a disservice to all mankind.

So I guess you aren't a fan of Alice Cooper. Or many metal bands.
What about an actor who plays villains?

 

[Ron R]

I think if the lyrics can reasonably held to the standard of a confession, and the evidence of the case supports it, then fair game. They certainly shouldn’t be ruled out solely on the basis that they’re a song.

Case in point made earlier in this thread- “ I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.”

Great lyric? Absolutely.

However, if there were evidence to prove that a man was shot dead in Reno, and Johnny was there the night it happened, and he didn’t have a solid alibi, and it was known he had a beef with the dude, I would fully expect that to be fully investigated. And if proved worth pursuing, would be prosecuted.

Art is not immunity, and shouldn’t be.

No, it's not immunity. However, any lawyer worth the money should be able to blow holes through a case if the premise is that an artist's lyrics demonstrate that artist's character. Many musical artists are playing a role in the music they create, and even if we're uncomfortable with that role, it is still simply a role.

 

[GGardner]

What about "Hey Joe where you going with that gum in your hair". That's a sticky situation.

Sweet!

 

[fretknot]

You're 16, you're beautiful, and you're mine...
Ringo Starr

 

[P Thought]

I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die...

I've always wondered, Reno being in Nevada, then what you doing in Folsom Prison? That's in California.

Edit: sorry, @Harry Styron, I jumped to reply before I looped back to read the rest of the posts.

 

[P Thought]

This will probably be very unpopular but ....... I have little respect for any artist that records something they don't believe in or agree with. So ..... yes. I could see someone using the work of an artist as an example of their beliefs or their take on "right and wrong". Because of the average age of buyers of new music I have to place a responsibility for song content on the artist. New music influences those who will one day assume positions of power in this world. To knowingly create content that could subvert the tenets of right and wrong in the minds that own the future is a disservice to all mankind.

Here's the trouble with that: lyrics are poetry. Most poems have a "voice" speaking. That voice is created by the poet, but it is not the poet's voice, it's the poem's. Nor are most poems sermons, though right and wrong are certainly explored in poems, as well as in other forms of literature. Poets, lyricists, are not doing disservice to mankind (I agree with those who find some lyrics disgusting, so I don't listen to those lyrics myself.) Those minds owning the future are fully capable of sorting this out. . .I'll stop there.

 

[thesamhill]

. If there were something in the lyrics that indicates knowledge of something only the murderer would know, wouldn’t that matter?

I think this is on point.

Also, shooting someone could be a few different crimes- that's why there's first degree murder, second degree murder, etc.

So they definitely have to prove the guy actually pulled the trigger and the lyrics may or may not be part of that (I kind of doubt it, but I don't even know what case this is). But to prove, say, first degree murder vs second degree murder they also have to show premeditation.

So the lyrics might have nothing to do with the actus reus part, and everything to do with the mens rea part, but thats still required to convict on first degree murder.