SONAR vs. Garageband vs. Ableton Live

[Digital Larry]

This is not going to be an extensive review/comparison, just my own recent experiences.

Awhile back I realized I wanted to get back into recording and had some consternation about using Cakewalk as I didn't find it conducive to what I was doing (trying to capture raw ideas). After some discussion here I realized, thanks to some insight from other members, that I should just continue to use my looper pedal for capturing ideas and work with the computer when doing the arrangement. That was a pretty big revelation as I'd been trying to find a way to use the computer to capture those spontaneous ideas and it is just too complicated. Many of those ideas wither and die before I ever press "record".

I tried Ableton Live version 10 on a 30-day trial and used one of their sample tracks as the basis for an arrangement of a reggae tune I wrote 35 years ago. It came together pretty well, although I never figured out how to use Arrangement view. I know, I know. I'm just getting old and I give up pretty easily. I also found that tempo changes worked pretty well without audio artifacts. I don't really like using the canned tracks very much simply because it's a bit too "karaoke" - I do have my own ideas after all.

One feature of Live which really helped me a lot was "audio warping" where you can tweak the rhythm of what you were playing, e.g. if you lagged a bit in one place. Was really easy and did not result in any audio weirdness.

Then I went on vacation and took my Macbook Air and Yamaha THR10C and Steinberger Guitar and TMB 30 short scale bass. No, I wasn't rock climbing in Yosemite! This gave me the opportunity to use Garageband which I'd never really tried before. It worked OK. I found I had difficulty with hitting the R button then getting my hands back on the guitar to play, without totally screwing up. I think I really have to loop the section a few times to get into the groove without button pushing distraction. The effect is worst when I am trying to play an intricate (for me) melody part. Rhythm and bass are not as difficult.

I don't know if Garageband has a good way to record while looping (like SONAR's loop takes) or do punch ins, as I didn't get to that point. I also don't really like the way Garageband says "I'm recording guitar, or voice", then e.g. guitar you HAVE to choose an amp model. Since I was using the THR I tried setting that to "flat" and using an amp model in GB, or using a mic channel in GB and using the amp modeling in the THR. Using amp models in both places was really noisy, though GB does seem to have a gate that works OK. I prefer the generic channel arrangement of SONAR and the ability to add whatever plugins I want.

I do find the auto-drummer in GB to be pretty cool and wish something similar existed in SONAR. I've tried SONAR's Session Drummer and you have to audition/choose "MIDI Groove Clips" which I absolutely hate doing. GB just says "set the time sig" and then you have an X/Y thing where you can adjust soft to loud on the X axis and simple to busy on the Y axis. That was very handy and got me on my way quickly without frustration. Note that the rhythm I was looking for was "6/8 Irish Jig" which is not represented very heavily in anyone's stock rhythm library.

Another problem I had with GB was copying/pasting the first section I recorded onto the end, just to extend the arrangement. Then typically I'd drop out the melody and re-do that with some variations. But when I did this, the parts of the second section were all out of sync with each other. Looping the first part over and over was not a problem. It should not have happened IMO and figuring stuff like this out is what makes me hate recording on a computer. So I never figured out why that happened and I don't care because I'm not going to continue using GB except when there are no other options.

I came back from vacation and thought, "dammit I will have a go at SONAR again". I looked at some online bodhran (Irish frame drum) lessons for jig rhythms and got something basic together in the drum synth step editor to record against. Then I recorded one tune, and made more progress in a short period of time than I have in many years. I think that keeping the rhythm (percussion) track simple at first is key for me. The minute I start editing drum tracks in piano roll view I get pretty burned out. So I am saving that for the point where the other stuff is pretty much in place.

I need to get a foot switch hooked up for start/stop/record/punch/rewind/etc.

I used the "take lanes" on SONAR and comped together some melody guitar parts. Sounds a little weird in places. What I did is to simply play a given lick in a certain position because I noticed I was making mistakes at position changes. Then I recorded other licks in different positions and was able to easily comp them together after I figured out how that process works! Yeah I had to RTFM. Yes, the recording process did display my musical shortcomings a bit.

So at this point I'm continuing with SONAR, just using a simple MIDI jig rhythm accompaniment, which doesn't sound all that bad, though it could use some variations and fills/accents in all the right places.

My goal now is to finish an arrangement which will be a medley of 3 jigs in E minor. Two are traditional and I wrote the middle one myself many years ago. I'm recording it all with electric instruments (bass/guitar/mandolin), and the goal is to sound something like Fairport Convention. For laughs I am using a different guitar for each tune, and the last tune in the medley will have the melody played on the bass and be a bit more "metal".

 

[awasson]

Nice write up and at a level I can relate to. I used Cakewalk way back in the day when it was on floppy disks and computers had Pentiums and Pentium MMX chips or Celerons. When hitting record was all that was necessary to produce artefacts in your tracks.

Anyway, I haven’t used Sonar but my writing and collaboration partner does. I use GB for capturing ideas before they disappear into the ether and find it much easier than the old Cakewalk days. Generally if an idea come up, I plug in to my desktop which is on 24/7, fire up GB and hit record to get the basics of the idea down. The most crucial part for me is getting the rate of time dialed in to begin with and then figuring out an intuitive name for it once I’m satisfied with the inspired bit of music.

Now that I’ve got the basics down with GB, I find it easier to use than my recollection of Cakewalk. I did have Cakewalk up until version 9.x but haven’t used it since around 2005. I was never extremely well versed in all its capabilities.

 

[Martin R]

GarageBand has a "count in" feature. The metronome will give you a measure of clicks then start recording. (I don't have it in front of me so sorry for being vague.)

 

[bluzkat]

Sonar should have something like a pre-roll (a count in for recording), check the manual. I use Cubase and Reaper, they both have that function and I'm pretty sure Sonar does also. No idea about Ableton or Garageband (its big brother Logic will definitely have it).

 

[Digital Larry]

GB has a metronome and adjustable count-in. It's not possible for it to be record-only as far as I can tell.

SONAR has a similar arrangement but you can set it to be record-only.

My problem is that I need to play through the whole thing a couple times to get into the groove. I am practicing these tunes as much as I can but the reality appears to be that I still sorta suck and need to be able to find the bits without mistakes and piece them together. Take lanes in SONAR (sorry I called them "loop takes" earlier) appear to handle this well, especially when you are playing the exact same thing over and over. It's less useful if you are improvising.

Regarding dealing with mistakes, I have occasionally used Melodyne in SONAR to correct a single note that was played well, but just happened to be the wrong note. Audio warping in Ableton Live helped tighten up my timing on bass lines, etc. I didn't even think my timing was that bad, but the recording seems to have indicated otherwise.

 

[Martin R]

Oops

 

[Digital Larry]

The most crucial part for me is getting the rate of time dialed in to begin with and then figuring out an intuitive name for it once I’m satisfied with the inspired bit of music.

What, you mean you can't remember "Cool rock riff 15A"?

 

[Martin R]

need to be able to find the bits without mistakes and piece them together. Take lanes in SONAR (sorry I called them "loop takes" earlier) appear to handle this well, especially when you are playing the exact same thing over and over.

You can certainly piece together bits and pieces if you use a metronome. The finger-picked guitar in this song easily has two dozen edits...one measure was probably used ten times.
It's a pain but it can be done.

 

[awasson]

What, you mean you can't remember "Cool rock riff 15A"?

Exactly. I’ve got a bunch named like that: “cool rock thing in A”, “cool thing in Bm”.

GB has a timing tool that synchronizes the timing. I don’t remember the name but I used it once to see how it worked but it introduced a modulation effect when it tightened everything up so I haven’t used it since. It may have improved over time. I haven’t tried it since.

I like the software drummer in GB. I use that a lot.

 

[DavidSchwab]

I haven’t used GarageBand in a while, but my main DAW these days is Logic.

But on both of them you can set a count off before it starts recording. This is the default setting. So set your playhead to where you want to record. Then set how many beats you want before it starts recording. It will play back from a few bars and then punch in. You can also set auto punch-in/out points

I play all the instruments on my recordings and this works great.

I had been using Cubase and ProTools, but started using GB because my singer had it on her MacBook Pro.

A few months later we both upgraded to Logic since certain kinds of editing was tricky on GB.

 

[Hexabuzz]

Curious as to why you recorded your THR as a guitar track (with Amp Designer) instead of just as an audio track...

 

[Digital Larry]

Curious as to why you recorded your THR as a guitar track (with Amp Designer) instead of just as an audio track...

You know, just following the UI - what are you recording? My guitar. Press this. Didn't realize the amp stack was inseparable from that choice. In SONAR it's just a track plugin. I did mention that using both the THR's track modeling and GB's guitar stuff was a bit excessive. I tried setting the THR to "flat" but ultimately I did as you say, use the THR amp models and not the ones in GB.

 

[IronSchef]

if you are using the THR10 as the interface, you should be choosing an Audio Track (not instrument track) ... ALSO - pull in tracks 1&2 from the THR10 signal w/ all of the effects/modelling, but pull in Tracks 3&4 as well for the DRY guitar signal!! this will allow you to process the dry signal using GB and put both stereo tracks in your project.

 

[Hexabuzz]

You know, just following the UI - what are you recording? My guitar. Press this. Didn't realize the amp stack was inseparable from that choice. In SONAR it's just a track plugin. I did mention that using both the THR's track modeling and GB's guitar stuff was a bit excessive. I tried setting the THR to "flat" but ultimately I did as you say, use the THR amp models and not the ones in GB.

Actually, the more I thought about this...

I don't think the THR has speaker simulated output (BTW, I assume you were recording direct with USB).

You could actually chose Transparent Preamp for the amp in Amp Designer, and just run your signal through the cabinet sim, and choose your speaker and mic combo.

Transparent Preamp
As the name suggests, a preamp stage with no coloration. You should note that the Transparent Preamp is activated in the Amp pop-up menu, not in the Model pop-up menu.

 

[tdu]

You know, just following the UI - what are you recording? My guitar. Press this. Didn't realize the amp stack was inseparable from that choice. In SONAR it's just a track plugin. I did mention that using both the THR's track modeling and GB's guitar stuff was a bit excessive. I tried setting the THR to "flat" but ultimately I did as you say, use the THR amp models and not the ones in GB.

You just don't use an instrument track to get around that. The other track type is just like a line-in. How else would people mic amps etc?

 

[phaedrus]

This is not going to be an extensive review/comparison, just my own recent experiences.

I don't know if Garageband has a good way to record while looping (like SONAR's loop takes) or do punch ins, as I didn't get to that point.

Yes, GB can let you loop a section and record multiple takes.

Go to preferences, Apple Key + , (comma)

There you will see two dropdowns for recording normally and one for looping, they call it cycle for some reason.

The choices are merge, which will layer each take on top of each other. More useful if you are creating a MIDI drum loop.

The other choice is for takes, which is what you want. Then you can make an unlimited number of takes.

Afterwards, you can loop playback and switch takes to find the one you like.

Let's say you like the first half of one take, but the second half of another take.

You can split the track/region with Apple Key + T and then you'll have two sections where you can select the take number independently.

Also, as other's noted you can add a count in and a click track. Up at the top you should see a 1-2-3-4 icon and a metronome icon.

 

[mfguitar]

I think if I had a decent Mac I would pluck down the $200 for Logic PRO and learn how to use it to its fullest. I really liked Sonar and was getting pretty good at it but my hardware became dated. Now I need something that I can use on a laptop with a quick setup. Samplitude works OK for me.

 

[phaedrus]

I noticed recently on Amazon they have 'renewed' mac for sale. You can get a decent Mac Mini or iMac for around $500 and GarageBand will come with it. They also have MacBooks, etc.

I'm still using my MacBook Air from 2014 and it's going strong. I specifically took the Mac plunge to be able to try out GarageBand. It seemed the cheapest/easiest hardware/software solution for me since my desktop PC at the time was 10ish years old.

 

[Obsessed]

Thanks for the write up and your personal experience. I'm still fairly green at recording and exclusively GB so far, so I find these comments very interesting. My best friend went through them all and ended up with Logic Pro for his professional EPs, but I don't see myself ever getting to that level.

 

[Digital Larry]

I've come full circle and currently trying to get some ideas down in Live.