So, you hate collectors...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by D_W_PGH, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    we are going through my wife's grandpas tools.... I have been having the conversation with her cousins about the difference between old, cheap crap and righteous, holy mother of god, that is awesome stuff. For folks like us... we generally see it immediately... but they struggle.... but are pleased when my eyes get big and I say 'oh man!' like I'm some sort of assayist or something...

    When I worked on the stone work there, I brought my own tools, but by luck, came across the tools her grandpa used... and I used them instead and created this gigantic 'meaning cloud' to breathe in and just dig that it was a connection to a man I never met. There is all of that stuff in this too....
     
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  2. ElJay370

    ElJay370 Tele-Holic

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    While I can get behind the idea that collecting renders a useful thing useless. (Look at Star Wars toys. What was their original purpose? For kids to play with! Not to be kept in it's original package for all eternity to be fawned over by obsessive adults.) I'm not bothered by collectors so much. At least they're treating instruments with loving care and preserving them for future generations. Besides, you can now purchase guitars that offer the look, feel, and sound of any legendary instrument you can name for a fraction of the cost. What I do have a problem with is the rise of greedy bottom feeders who take perfectly serviceable instruments, disassemble them, and auction off the entrails to the highest bidder. If I have a mostly original '65 SG that's been refretted a few times and has a headstock repair, I can make way more money by tearing it apart and selling off the knobs, bridge, pickups, etc. than I could selling the complete guitar, regardless of how well it plays or how much "mojo" it has. There are only so many of these guitars left in the world, and the fact that many of them are simply being stripped and cast aside to make an easy buck sickens me. I hold collector culture solely responsible for this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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  3. MatsEriksson

    MatsEriksson Tele-Holic

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    Can only speak from a Scandinavian perspective, and view. No one here "hates" anything. They may dislike being around some people, but so it is. I don't like being around some people, and I choose which I hang with. Collectors and gear hoarders, I don't mind. One might even find interesting stuff in there, that may be up for trade.

    One thing that definitely is totally unheard of around here, are the brand snobs, and that Squier owners should get frowned at. Which seems to be the case "over there". Asked all music shop people around here, and Swedish forums, and they just ...what? Never ever existed some hatred against collectors and gear hoarders or Squier owners. But I can very well think that stateside, the magazine "Guitar Aficionados" will try to coax people into thinking that buying guitars is a financial investment, that is safe and sure for the future. May give some some thorn in their sides... but, I don't care, and wouldn't ever be jealous of some other spending THEIR money on whatever, guitars, gears, collectors. As long as they don't spend mine, I couldn't care less about them. Jay Leno owns 300 cars, does that make him drive a car like Schumacher?

    I think that you own too many pedals, or guitars, when you decide on buying something that you see in the shop, and comes home only to find out that you already got it. Exactly the one, not a different color or variation of it. The one guy in "that pedal Show" answered a question at a Copenhagen Guitar Show a few years back, and he confessed to buying more than one pedal that was exactly as one he already owned. I e he forgot which he alrady had in his collection. When he sold off ca 250 pedals on e-bay, auction, or reverb, it couldn't be detected that his room, or real estate space had diminished. He has lost count on how many pedals he owns. Mancave, you know. The amount of pedals wasn't better or worse when he shifted 250 of them. Not his wife noticed, not himself. Imagine that.

    Jealousy and envious about things, that's all I can think of.

    I know of a Swedish Hagström collector, that collects Hagstrom guitars. Well, he was on national TV. He said he can't play a note, and just buy's them for looks, and wall hangers. But when questioned how he can tell whether it is a good or bad item that he has bought, the answer was something out of Spinal Tap..."well... this one goes to eleven"... or similar. ;) Maybe that's something to do with the hatred over there?

    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Actually on the contrary, it has existed 1-2 or two of my personal friends who are guitar hoarders. But they can't afford to buy Gibsons, Fenders, and vintage Martins. They got dime a dozen flea market finds, dumpster finds, especially semi-vintage guitars of lesser brands, Japanese counterfeit periods, and they have almost no space left for one guitar more. And when they come home and see my only two Boutique brand guitars, I do own 3 guitars, they see a Klein electric and a Dingwall bass among that JG Telecaster. They wonder why I spend so damn much on one or two guitars. Scolded me for that boutique thing (read guitar aficionado above).

    So...

    Went home to them and calculated, added the total sum of their 23 guitars (which most of them are hangers and not really one that keeps tune, is possible to intonate and lousy playing feel) that they spent money on during all years. It exceeded my total expense 2-3 times over... and their reply was, flushing faces - sort of - "well... these ones goes to eleven... anyway". It's the quantity that's important to them, not the quality.
    :mad:
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  4. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    The tear down and resell market is a weird one. It occurs in tools, too. A handle from a plane with a nice sticker on it (from new) might be worth more by itself than it is on the plane it started on. If you take it and put it on a plane that's got a handle with the decal worn off and put it in a box as all original (with an original box), and say it's all original parts, nobody generally knows.

    I'd assume that some of these parts are being used to make fraud guitars. I'd suspect that some dealers deal in guitars like this, too. They may not do the adjusting, but they'll stay mum if they figure it out later. I've seen guitars sold as original from one of the more reputable dealers (that I'll never name) that were found to not be original. There will definitely be some cases where nobody could tell, either. If you found a restoration specialist/maker who worked in a curated museum (so that they were constantly exposed to what makes someone able to tell if an item is restored), they could easily make something like a fake guitar or violin.

    That is one of the reasons I'll never buy a valuable vintage instrument, but the idea that they're better saved than played is reason number one, and is enough by itself.
     
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  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    My great grandfather was a carpenter and when my great grandmother died we found several wooden tool chests full of tools like yours.
     
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  6. Totally_Tod

    Totally_Tod Tele-Meister

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    Collings electric guitars couldn’t be uglier
     
  7. HolyTele Tube

    HolyTele Tube TDPRI Member

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    I think a big draw for collectors is that guitars look cool. I was able to make friends with the curator of a Hard Rock Cafe Museum. It was awe inspiring to Hold Jimi Hendricks Flying V. I don't think that you have to be a player to appreciate that.

    Another benefit for collectors is that guitars are relatively maintenance free. Once owned it doesn't cost much to hang a vintage guitar on the wall.
    This is in contrast to the classical instrument world. Vintage violins etc require high dollar maintenance and are easier to preserve if played.

    I also play banjo and I have had the chance to play 3 "Pre War" Gibson's. They are the holy grail of the banjo world. I didn't have enough money and I also didn't like the way they sounded because of all the challenges associated with keeping a vintage instrument period correct.

    I don't mind collectors because I love to see those old instruments surface from time to time.
     
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  8. Totally_Tod

    Totally_Tod Tele-Meister

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    If people are paying for the item, who cares?

    Yes, vintage guitars are insanely expensive, but why shouldn’t they be? They’re literally the first of their kind. Who’s to say what guitar should be used for.. Fender made them to make money. Once it left Fender, who cares. How many of the original pre-cbs guitars were bought by parents for a kid that never played it? No different than the rich baby-boomer that bought it in the late 90s for 50 grand.

    My ‘63 Strat lived in a case most of its life, and it’s one of the best strats I’ve ever played, hell of a lot better than anything Collings could offer... That said, if it got stolen I wouldn’t replace it with the insurance money..

    If you hate collectors buying all the great guitars, then you have to hate them for having a bigger house, nicer car, etc.. all the things someone rich enough to be a collector...

    Hard to group vintage les Paul’s and vintage fenders in the same category, fensers generally in my experience have way less issues, and of course bursts are like 250,000 dollars.
     
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  9. jrblue

    jrblue Tele-Afflicted

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    Like many, I sometimes say I "hate" collectors, but that's a shorthand exaggeration. What I do feel is a strong dislike for the practice of taking lots of instruments out of circulation and treating them not as a means of making music, but as precious material objects. The notion of preserving them unaltered for future generations is, IMO, largely crap. There's no great audience of museum-goers wanting to find a museum with a nice White Falcon on display. And there are millions of really good, non museum-quality guitars hanging around in personal collections waiting for the owner to croak so the family can divest themselves for cash, and the guitars can get played again. There's nothing altruistic about collecting. I would never intrude on someone's freedom to do what they want, and collectors get to go ahead and collect. I just don't get the point of it, and I certainly think it does not benefit musicians and players, that's for sure. It's not a musical activity. But my opinion is meaningless. A huge volume of guitars will re-enter the marketplace in the next 10 years.
     
  10. D_W_PGH

    D_W_PGH Friend of Leo's

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    I got a chuckle out of that. Fenders guitars are revolutionary 60 years ago, but I've seen lot of both and there's not much comparison in workmanship or materials.

    Fender makes a great guitar, better now than they probably ever did, but it is to the 1k guitar what collings is to the 3-5k guitar. From a budding maker's perspective, Collings guitars are astounding.
     
  11. dsutton24

    dsutton24 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    So, you hate collectors...

    I don't hate anyone or anything. Your title is unnecessarily inflammatory.
     
  12. Totally_Tod

    Totally_Tod Tele-Meister

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    Somewhat unfair to compare Gibson style boutique (Collings), to Fender Style bolt-on... for obvious build reasons, and Fenders are just obviously better ! (Joke)..
     
  13. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    I work quite a bit with vintage dealers, brokers, their clients and other collectors.

    There seems to be a significant misconception by many of how big the "collector/hoarder" group is those who buy vintage gear and stick it in vaults, never to be played. It's been estimated that items bought by that group comprise less that 1% of the sales volume in the vintage guitar/amp/related market.

    Examples - most $400,000 price level 50's Les Paul Sunbursts, virtually all vintage Fenders, +/- $100k Dumble amps and prewar Martin D-45's are played. Some regularly, some brought out for special occasions. VERY few such instruments are simply stored, and if they are they are museum quality and most often put on display.

    50's Fenders priced on the high end (because of their condition) might be purchased by doctors or attorneys - but most play the instruments they buy. Many, including quite a few instruments collected by "name" players, are loaned or rented out for use in charity or other concerts, TV shows and films. And many are divesting themselves of instruments they don't use. Fragile pieces may be retired from regular use but are rarely retired permanently to a vault. There ARE a few large-scale hoarders, but primarily in the banjo market and a few other "niche" areas. They do not have much effect on the market as a whole.

    The "want" lists I've seen certainly include high-end expensive gear - but for playing purposes - not storage/investment. Prices have been driven up due to rarity (in some cases) but primarily demand by player/collectors.

    I don't have a huge collection, but but most would consider it a fairly large number of 30's, 40's. 50's and 60's guitars, prewar Martin Ukes and various specialty items. I can't gig any longer due to some physical problems, but they do not prevent me from playing. Every instrument amp and effect I own gets played regularly by me and some are also loaned out to friends for gigs or studio projects. Virtually everyone else I know with what the average player would consider a big collection of vintage gear does the same thing and uses most on gigs if they are able.

    There's just not the "access denial" many seem to assume exists. Pricing may certainly be a hurdle for many players, but it's not due to a significant number of hoarders. They're a small factor. in the market.

    Hope that helps explain some of the realities.
     
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  14. Totally_Tod

    Totally_Tod Tele-Meister

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    Sums up my personal experience in dealing with vintage guitars as well.
     
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  15. dan1952

    dan1952 Friend of Leo's

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    I had a friend in high school who didn't attend college, and went to work at a lumber yard. Married young, stayed married, worked his way up to owning a lumber brokerage firm, etc., etc.. Among his collectible stuff is a first year mint condition Corvette. I chose to be a professional musician, and have done okay at it, but paid for a couple of divorces, bought lots of new cars by making payments, finally paid for a house at 63. No complaints, I'm fine. But...I drive a Honda Odyssey with 230,000 miles. Am I mad because my friend has a really cool Corvette, a mansion in Georgia, a mansion in Indiana, and a condo in France? No. We make our choices and live with the consequences. Being pissed at others because they've done better than I would be completely illogical. I came from a family where I was expected to do as well financially as my friend has, and I took a different path, by choice.
     
  16. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    I think the banjo hoarders might be providing a public service.. (JUST KIDDING!)
     
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  17. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I recall a time before the Burst became the big money guitar, D'Aquisto was making more modern guitars and there were really very few options for a "world class" Jazz guitarist to buy a "world class" acoustic archtop Jazz guitar, largely because at the time the Japanese collectors were buying up all the D'Angelico and other master built acoustic Jazz guitars and putting them three deep in glass cases, unplayed.

    This was the story at the time anyhow, IIRC I might have read about it in VG mag as well as maybe other places, and maybe heard about it from shops that handled higher end vintage.
    I kinda wanted such a guitar, and some years later looked seriously at what was supposed to be from D'Angelico's shop but sold with no branding, either as a second, or as a build by a jr luthier or some such story.
    That was IIRC at Ludlow guitars in NYC.

    I think Dan at Chelsea guitars had stuff to say about this, but it may have been the other dealer who used to share that NYC guitar shop.

    Anyhow, back then I felt a bit bitter that supposedly the poor American Jazz guitar players couldn't afford a master American Jazz guitar to ply their trade on.

    This would have been in the mid to late '80s when i still believed vintage solid body electrics had some special mojo, or the old aged wood "sounded better", or the vintage pickups were different.

    At this point I prefer to have rich folks keeping those remaining fine instruments protected and insured.
    Plenty of newer options for musicians so why carry museum pieces into barrooms.

    I knew a punk guy who played a stock early '50s LP in nasty NYC dive bars, when it was only worth maybe a couple thousand $$, and he agreed it was maybe time to use something newer.

    Another friend had a cleanish '59 Jr, and he loaned it to a pretty young player to bring on a tour in Europe in maybe 1992, which at the time I thought was maybe a bit careless. He often had really nice guitars within reach in his shop, like a '50s Black Beauty and an original '60s PP Tele.
    This was on St Marks in the East Village where junkies roamed, so it was a legit concern.
    Robert Quine was often there and preferred a cheap Fernandes guitars at the time, seeming kind of disdainful toward valuable vintage guitars.
    Hard to tell with him though, his look of disdain fell on all in his view!

    But it's been quite a while since vintage guitars became less cool to a whole lot of players, maybe because music is cooler than guitars, and when the room is drooling over a guitar, the music becomes secondary, or the point of being an artist doing their work changes into something petty.
     
  18. 3fngrs

    3fngrs Friend of Leo's

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    It seems an awful lot of folk are very concerned with what people they don't know spend their disposable income on.

    I'm too busy screwing up my own life to care much what other people do. Leastwise as long as they aren't screwing with me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  19. Nick Fanis

    Nick Fanis Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    It's a free world and a free market.
    If you hate collectors go and live in North Korea.
    I assure you it is collector- free.
    Me?I have way better things to do than hate people because they have more money than me.
     
  20. RodeoTex

    RodeoTex Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've never heard of old tools being hoarding, thus causing a shortage or inflated market.
    What's up with this question?
    Nobody wants this stuff anyway.
     
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