1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

So much confusion for someone new!

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by Rob L, May 26, 2020.

  1. Jim_in_PA

    Jim_in_PA Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    1,949
    Joined:
    May 31, 2019
    Location:
    SE PA near New Hope PA
    I agree with this 110%. Stuff happens. Even the most experienced person has stuff happen. Freeman also just spoke the "golden rule of finishing"...aways work it out on scrap of the same material. Never on the actual project.

    One the back, instead of trying to stain/dye it black, have you considered making it solid black? A black "stain" is incredibly difficult to pull off in an even way. Going solid answers the mail with great contrast for a nicely colored body top.
     
  2. Rob L

    Rob L Tele-Meister

    Age:
    58
    Posts:
    309
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2020
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I did this cause of being couped up in my house. When I had my shop and tools it was exciting and fun. I hoped this would be fun and it hasn't. Painting them was much easier when I had the shop/tools. Maybe the CBG will be more fun since building one since the rules aren't so strict. You kind can't mess one up...lol
    Thanks everyone for the advice. I still haven't' decided if I'm gonna sand the sealer off and use the conditioner or not. I'm thinking pure black will be a lot more forgiving then the green was. :)
     
  3. Si G X

    Si G X Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,104
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2019
    Location:
    England
    RE@ black stain.... the pickguard and back plate on mine is stained with black stain.

    Here's what I found, most black stain is way too diluted to get a dark black finish, and will just go blotchy, as you've already found out on the back. What I ended up using was crimson guitars 'stain shots' that are super concentrated and meant to be highly diluted. To get a dark black I basically used the concentrate mixed with just a very small amount of water. (rather than the other way around) ... so it can work but you need to buy a product that is designed to be diluted (maybe a leather dye or something like that might be an option for you?) and either don't dilute it, or mix it at a much higher ratio.
     
    Rob L likes this.
  4. Rob L

    Rob L Tele-Meister

    Age:
    58
    Posts:
    309
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2020
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Thank you Si G X! Great advice!
     
    Si G X likes this.
  5. jtees4

    jtees4 Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,201
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Location:
    selden, ny
    I think it looks pretty good. Personally I would paint the back black, but that's just me. Then clear coat the entire thing. Again, just me.
     
    Rob L likes this.
  6. Rob L

    Rob L Tele-Meister

    Age:
    58
    Posts:
    309
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2020
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I am going black but with water based stain. I also have water based top coat. That way there's no problems with mixing oil and water by mistake.
     
  7. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    75
    Posts:
    4,837
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Location:
    Washington
    Rob, if you want solid opaque black don't use stain - do a black finish with whatever product you are familiar with. Be forewarned that solid opaque black is about the hardest finish to pull of - I've never attempted it but I have done repairs on black nitro finishes with"acceptable" results. If I truly wanted opaque black I would have it done using two part automotive finish.

    My definition of a "stain" is a liquid that is designed to be absorbed by the wood fibers, changing their color from the insides (as opposed to sitting on top of the surface, which is a "finish" or if opaque, a "paint"). I used stains to change the color of the wood but still have the character - grain, figure, natural color - all show through. Part of that is due to the way wood absorbs liquids at different rates in different places - end grain more than side grain, figure more than non figure. That takes a certain amount of skill on the operator which is why I practice on scrap.

    My feeling and experience is that if I "seal" the wood with whatever product I choose it doesn't absorb the stain as well - it defeats the purpose. Some people think it gives you more control over the stain, I feel that it gives me less. But again, I have figured this out for myself on my own pieces of wood.

    My sequence is always
    1 - decide on the effect I want and practice on a piece of scrap to make sure I can get it
    2 - do any staining I feel I want
    3 - pore fill if the wood is porous. Pore filler may also have some color
    4 - seal the stain into the wood with a compatible sealer
    5 - apply any color tinted or opaque finish
    6 - apply clear finish

    My finishes are almost exclusively nitrocellulose lacquer. I have experimented with water born lacquer (the old StewMac stuff, KTM-9, I have not tried Target) and I really wanted to like water born, but I have gone back to nitro - I simply get better results. I use exclusively StewMac's Colortone dyes to make my stains, I have experimented with both water and DNA for the solvent and slightly prefer DNA. Zpoxy is my pore filler of choice but I have used paste fillers. I use vinyl sealer to match the lacquer and if I want to tint my lacquer I use the same StewMac dye. I've never done a green or black guitar so I'm no help there.

    Good luck
     
    Rob L likes this.
  8. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

    Age:
    68
    Posts:
    9,781
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2003
    Location:
    Lawndale CA

    Thats a good method.

    One thing I do differently is I always use sanding sealer BEFORE the stain or dye. Without it you have little control over the color; with it you can use a solvent-dampened cloth to wipe areas going too "deep" and pull the color out.

    It only works with s anding sealers, which have specific clear pigments of varied sizes, shapes and porosity that are chemically developed for the purpose.

    Some use thinned lacquer or shellac, which work fine if no stain or dye will be used. But they do NOT work as color control agents. Also, while Colortone's dyes work fine, their lacquers (sanding sealers, pigmented and clears) are not normal lacquers - they are "lacquer enamels", with oil based paint resin and solvents in them. This causes them to dry VERY slowly.

    And while Dan Erlewine uses the wrong term in the instructions and finishing manual (he says " cure time....", and conventional lacquers AND lacquer enamels DO NOT CURE - they dry ONLY by evaporation) his warnings about waiting bizarrely long times between coats and before buffing ARE correct - but only for Colortone's products (and Deft, another lacquer enamel). Normal lacquers like Mohawk, Behlens, Cardinal, Rust-Oleum, ReRanch etc dry in 30-60 minutes per coat - and you can buff a few hours after final clear coat application!
     
    Rob L likes this.
  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    23,228
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I’ve done a bunch of stain and tint to match antique woodwork.
    The key is to try it on scrap first.
    For me I choose not to stain guitars!
    Wood stain is like a lawn mower, it’s not very detail oriented and you can have accidents using it in a very small area!
     
    Rob L likes this.
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.