So many benefits to riding a bicycle......

Stanford Guitar

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Sorry for continuing my thread hijack, but I don't want to refuse free help here.

From the receipt from the shop, which is still in my email for easy copying and pasting:

- Competition Spoke Pricing SKU

- DT Swiss 2.0 x 12mm Black Brass Nipple

- Tubeless Rim Tape by the Foot

- Velocity Quill Rim - 700, Rim, Black, 32H, Clincher

- Teravail Cannonball Tire - 700 x 42, Tubeless, Folding, Black, Durable

And they sold me a bottle of Stan's sealant, which I assume is in the tires as well - or was, the first time they were set up tubeless. I don't know what's in there now.

The first time I went for a ride with this setup, I hit a goathead thorn (we have tons of them around here) and got a flat tire. It turned out there were tubes in the tires, even though I had paid for a tubeless setup.

I took this picture on the side of the road with my phone after being so surprised to find a tube after I had paid for a tubeless setup.

IMG-0289.jpg


I went back to the shop and they apologized as one might expect and set them up tubeless while I waited and at no extra charge. It's a busy shop in Denver and I have no reason to think they don't know what they're doing.

Then the problems I described above started happening. The shop that did the initial setup is near my office but not my home, so I've gone to another reputable shop close to home since then. Each time, I've explained the history and they've said things like, "Hmm, maybe they need to be re-taped". Each time I've paid $40 for the setup but the situation hasn't improved.

I went back a couple weeks ago and the tires are still holding air (the last time I looked) but I haven't ridden it yet. Yeah, I know, but I'm busy with work and a wife and teenage kids, so my time isn't always my own.

Thanks for the interest and willingness to offer advice!


That is a road racing rim with an internal width of 21mm (road width rim). The tire (42mm gravel width tire) is likely too wide, particularly at low pressure, to run on that rim width. I'd recommend a different and slightly more narrow tire. The Teravail website recommends a 25mm rim width for that tire. I don't know why a shop would pair that rim with a gravel tire??

Check out the Teravail website for the correct rim spec. https://teravail.com/blogs/resources/bike-tire-size-guide
 
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imwjl

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Go ahead and switch back to tubes. It's kind of weird that you're having this problem, though. I hang my bikes in the garage from hooks, so that might help.

I bought an Airshot tank you can pump up to high pressure with a floor pump and then it lets out a whole bunch of air super fast so you can re-seat a tubeless tire on the rim. Otherwise you need a high-output air compressor.

I suspect you have an issue with either your rim or your tire beads. In my experience even when the tubeless tires go completely flat the bead stays stuck to the rim, glued on there by dried latex tubeless goo. It is actually really, really hard to unseat the beads when I need to change tires. Out by the side of the road the trick I figured out is to lay the wheel on the ground (disc side up!), then carefully stand on the tire sidewall with my foot as close to the rim edge as possible, and then bend over and pull up on the rim until the tire bead pops off the rim with a loud "pop". Once I get it partially unseated it is easy to unseat it the rest of the way.

Basically I am doing what this guy is doing in this video, but using the ground and my feet as the bench vise.

Are you sure you have tubeless ready rims and tires? Also make sure you have proper tubeless tire rim tape.

View attachment 984957


I was aware of that but got and can still return the Bontrager current version of flash charger that was sort of the OG product for this. As much as I have other pumps, the simplicity was compelling.

So far I'm on the fence. Even my inexpensive Craftsman pancake type compressor does better against it than I thought just from capacity. The elements that say keep it is it should still let me fix a once mounted tire if I'm traveling and it's simpler than the separate Airshot. It's a good pump on its own. Negative me says I could have another $99 pancake type compressor at the cabin.

 

Honga Man

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Stanford Guitar said:
That rim internal width is 21mm. The tire is likely too wide, particularly at low pressure, to run on that rim width. I'd recommend a different and slightly more narrow tire.

Thanks. I haven't heard that suggestion yet. Not good news, but if that's the answer, I'd rather know it than remain as clueless as I am now.

And, if that's true, I'm wondering why the LBS would have recommended that combination. I know they ordered everything, or at least that's what they said, back in the late summer of 2020 when everyone was buying bikes and parts were (and probably still are) scarce.

I just wanted to finally get a decent wheelset after buying a good used bike with a stock wheels. The rear wheel that went out of round shortly after buying it as I bombed down a washboard gravel downhill run probably faster that I should have. I had the LBS true the stock wheels so I could keep them as backups or for some other bike for our growing kids. I had a few extra bucks at the time , so I ordered a tubeless wheelset after years of reading how great tubeless is, fixing lots of flats from goathead thorns, and hearing that a good wheelset makes all the difference. I'm in my fifties now and wanted to get something that was "lifetime quality", if you know what I mean. I'd hate to have to buy something else so soon.

I love the bike, when the tires hold air. When I bought this, I had a '96 Specialized Allez with 25mm tires that were too thin for the miles and miles of gravel trails that run right behind my house. I also had (and still have) a '93 or '94 rigid mountain bike that I put "dirt-drop" handlebars on, but it always seems like a lot more work to ride than the road bike was (obviously). I wanted a bike that was more like a road bike but with fat tires. I thought this was the answer, and I think it will be when I get the wheel & tire thing figured out.

IMG-8475.jpg
 
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imwjl

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@Honga Man @Stanford Guitar It might be important to know advising really wide rims is recent in the whole life of modern tubeless bike technology. A 40 mm tire on a 21 mm inner rim should work considering it was very common or standard to have 50-56 mm tires on that 21-23 mm rims for quite a while.

Being personal friends with two bike industry tire and wheel brand managers I also know they use newer better performance available to sell aftermarket wheels. That said, there has also been some tire design optimized for rim width.

What might be going on here is I recall some Velocity rims have different depth than others. Also, some rims are hookless and not all tires are friendly with hookless rims let along really consistent.

Finally, @Honga Man some tires need refresh of some more sealant and some riding to seal better. Yes it can be a bother but a bother I find worth it. I don't like flats stopping me. I can be really bad about acting my age so I like the performance.
 

Skully

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About 13 years ago, I begn riding a bicycle for the first time in decades. I was in fine shape as far as strength and cardiovascular endurance went, but there were some specific cycling muscles that were probably not adequately developed. One afternoon, I cycled over a long, lumpy, grassy field, standing up as I pedaled hard. Apparently, this severely fatigued some lower adbominal muscles, which threw off my balance. I fell in my garage, then I fell again, badly tearing the muscles. Not only was it extremely painful and somewhat debilitating, within a day, the internal blood spillage it produced had settled in my nether regions, which was rather scary. It took me several years before I could do certain excersises, like tricep presses, without fear of tweaking the injury.
 

telel6s

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That is a road racing rim with an internal width of 21mm (road width rim). The tire (42mm gravel width tire) is likely too wide, particularly at low pressure, to run on that rim width. I'd recommend a different and slightly more narrow tire. The Teravail website recommends a 25mm rim width for that tire. I don't know why a shop would pair that rim with a gravel tire??

Check out the Teravail website for the correct rim spec. https://teravail.com/blogs/resources/bike-tire-size-guide
You beat me to the punch on this. Per Teravail, that 42 tire is really pushing it on a 21.1 internal diameter rim (https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/quill-622). Add in the relatively high pressure (45 psi is high for a 700x42 tubeless gravel tire) on that narrow of a rim and this could be part of the issue with the tires not sealing correctly. For my weight and gravel riding I'd probably be starting a 42mm tire at about 35 psi - might go a little higher or lower depending on how that feels or what road conditions I'd be riding on a given day. On my current gravel bike I've got a 40mm up front and 36mm in the rear. At ~200 lbs fully kitted out I run 35 psi in front and 38 psi in the rear. Zero flats since I went tubeless in February 2020. I max at 40 psi if I'll just be on pavement.

1652985378607.png

@Honga Man @Stanford Guitar It might be important to know advising really wide rims is recent in the whole life of modern tubeless bike technology. A 40 mm tire on a 21 mm inner rim should work considering it was very common or standard to have 50-56 mm tires on that 21-23 mm rims for quite a while.

Being personal friends with two bike industry tire and wheel brand managers I also know they use newer better performance available to sell aftermarket wheels. That said, there has also been some tire design optimized for rim width.

I think that clinchers give you more leeway on the tire size to rim internal width. I've run 700x35 on old 13 mm internal width rims for my CX/Commuter bike. But for tubeless setup, that tire bead to rim interface has to remain airtight, not just stay on the rim. While I agree about all industries pushing new tech just to increase sales, that new tech is not always backwards compatible.

@Honga Man - I'm sorry you are having these issues. Chances are slim I could solve anything via TDPRI; just trying to think of things for you to look at. It does sound like the shop's tire size recommendation for those wheels was not the best (or they should have recommended wider rims). For example, WTB's Tire & Rim Fit Chart lists up to 50mm tires on a 21mm internal width rim. Velocity's website does list that the Quill rim can handle up to a 47mm tire, but doesn't say if that's for clinchers &/or tubeless. But as shown above, that tire/rim are on the outside edge of Teravail's recommendations.

I still have to question why a good shop can't figure this out for you vs. charging you $40 each time.

By the way, nice Surly. I rented the disc brake version of that for several days of winery visits around Queenstown, NZ. Loved it.
 

chris m.

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Me too.

When people think we're nuts I point out our bodies and minds are in good shape across the whole family. In another post @Stanford Guitar and I discussed the value of adventure sports with kids.
Me too. My 12 year old boy is already a fine mountain biker and surfer. Right now he's got a Rocky Mountain 24" hard tail-- Vertex Jr. like this one, but in orange color way.

1652988204547.png


When he grows out of it I'm leaning towards a Rocky Mountain Growler 40 as a really nice trail hard tail.

I'm actually really tempted to get a new hard tail for myself even though I have a full squish Yeti. The new trail hard tails with slack head tube, steep seat tube, and short chain stays are a whole lot of fun....there's a guy with a cool YouTube channel-- HardTail Party, that has gotten me pumped up to go back to the simplicity of a hard tail one of these days. I'm getting too old for double black diamond trails, anyway, preferring more flow-y terrain with the occasional rock garden or steep drops. No hucking or sending it for me, though.
 

imwjl

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Me too. My 12 year old boy is already a fine mountain biker and surfer. Right now he's got a Rocky Mountain 24" hard tail-- Vertex Jr. like this one, but in orange color way.

View attachment 985060

When he grows out of it I'm leaning towards a Rocky Mountain Growler 40 as a really nice trail hard tail.

I'm actually really tempted to get a new hard tail for myself even though I have a full squish Yeti. The new trail hard tails with slack head tube, steep seat tube, and short chain stays are a whole lot of fun....there's a guy with a cool YouTube channel-- HardTail Party, that has gotten me pumped up to go back to the simplicity of a hard tail one of these days. I'm getting too old for double black diamond trails, anyway, preferring more flow-y terrain with the occasional rock garden or steep drops. No hucking or sending it for me, though.
A friend has linked that YouTube guy knowing and questioning why our whole family and others love our steel Honzo.

Now there are lots of alternatives to the OG modern hardtails and to me some are going too slack. Our earlier Honzo really does about everything. It's fun to ride to a pump track or park with jump line, do a gravel ride, a trail ride. IMO some of the new models are a bit less versatile but still super fun.

If you have a 12 year old it may be he'll take it over. With great pride our steel Honzo frame is alive but two sets of wheels killed, at least 5 derailleurs, and the other day I was told "Papa, the Honzo bottom bracket is wearing out.". The steel has been tough, good threads, and it was a platform where my teen learned to fix and build some wheels too.

I'm a bit partial to Canfield, Kona and Chromag for being sort of originators of the modern hardtail but know there are many great ones.
 

Old Plank

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Last summer I got my riding conditioning to a pretty good point with 3-4 hilly rides a week around the region here. After injuring a knee late last fall (from slamming my foot into a near-invisible little stump while running/disc golfing, of all things!) and mostly missing skiing, especially the more strenuous spring variety; and now being recently post-'that which shall not be named', my so-far relatively shorter rides are really whupping me, sucking wind ... in fact I just came in from a ride before seeing this thread, and my whole head hurts. Hoping these post-effects don't last too much longer!
 

chris m.

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A friend has linked that YouTube guy knowing and questioning why our whole family and others love our steel Honzo.

Now there are lots of alternatives to the OG modern hardtails and to me some are going too slack. Our earlier Honzo really does about everything. It's fun to ride to a pump track or park with jump line, do a gravel ride, a trail ride. IMO some of the new models are a bit less versatile but still super fun.

If you have a 12 year old it may be he'll take it over. With great pride our steel Honzo frame is alive but two sets of wheels killed, at least 5 derailleurs, and the other day I was told "Papa, the Honzo bottom bracket is wearing out.". The steel has been tough, good threads, and it was a platform where my teen learned to fix and build some wheels too.

I'm a bit partial to Canfield, Kona and Chromag for being sort of originators of the modern hardtail but know there are many great ones.
If they're too long and too slack they don't ascend very well. I like a more balanced ride that would be agile on the climbs and tight switchbacks as well as a bomber on the descents. For me personally, the bikes on my short list that seem like a great price and great geometry include the Marin Team Issue 2, the Specialized Fuse Comp, Salsa Timberjack, and Rocky Mountain Growler 50. Marin Team Issue 2 seems like a nice balance of agile going up and still pretty bomber going down. Compared to the bikes that I used to race on for NORBA Expert cross country races these new bikes are so much more plush for downhills. Beyond frame geometry, the boost spacing, hydraulic disc brakes, higher stack, wider handlebars, dropper post (!! what a huge difference!!), and better modern forks help a lot as well.
 

imwjl

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If they're too long and too slack they don't ascend very well. I like a more balanced ride that would be agile on the climbs and tight switchbacks as well as a bomber on the descents. For me personally, the bikes on my short list that seem like a great price and great geometry include the Marin Team Issue 2, the Specialized Fuse Comp, Salsa Timberjack, and Rocky Mountain Growler 50. Marin Team Issue 2 seems like a nice balance of agile going up and still pretty bomber going down. Compared to the bikes that I used to race on for NORBA Expert cross country races these new bikes are so much more plush for downhills. Beyond frame geometry, the boost spacing, hydraulic disc brakes, higher stack, wider handlebars, dropper post (!! what a huge difference!!), and better modern forks help a lot as well.
My co-trail steward has that Salsa and likes it but not everyone wants an AL frame. A bike shop owning friend warns the good value of the Marins at times means needing to chase the head and seat tubes. He's particular and still sells them so I would not worry.

From your post I'm reminded bike geometry is one of those things were humans got stupid or lazy. For generations most stuff was designed for the elite racer most people aren't. Barely more than a decade ago Transition, Kona and Canfield made stuff that was just fun. I think Kona sells enough where it caught on and others realized they better copy the Honzo or Nimble 9.

It might be a Firefly he got, but last year a friend when about as stupid on a ti MTB hardtail as I did with the Moots gravel bike. You could also do that and be done for life. I checked out a Moots Womble shop demo. Be careful. It was kind of like being a teenage boy and have a bikini girl sit on your lap and start singing while she gives you a hug - just the perfect maybe 67 degrees HT you're asking for.

:)
 

chris m.

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I had a Litespeed Catalyst but the frame was a bit too flexy. With aluminum they're trying to make it more compliant. With Ti they're trying to make it laterally stiffer.....with steel it's easy but steel is heavier and it rusts. Carbon is probably the best in terms of ability to engineer stiffness/flex where you want it, except it's more fragile when it comes to whacking things, especially for mt-biking.....I saw a guy actually have a Specialized road bike racing frame break completely into two pieces when he crashed in a criterium....and he didn't even crash all that hard.

Mt bikes are so expensive now that I almost want the bike to land on me so I can protect it when I crash. Crazy.
 

Honga Man

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So I have road racing rims for my 42mm tires? That's crazy. Maybe they sold me what they had to make a quick buck. I don't know, but I'm grateful to you guys for helping educate me on something I should have looked into in greater detail before spending my money. Usually I'm a detail guy, but this time I said to myself "just do it!"

I haven't gotten this much advice at bike forums. It was all the stuff you guys started with - "that can't be right; tubeless tires are hard to get off rims" and so forth.

Much appreciated!
 

HappyMangle

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I loved my early morning ride this morning and was exhausted from driving back in a strong heat.
Now going to contact stanley here and ask them to choose few good drinking bottles in order to stay hydrated on my next rides. Any other recommendation on a good drinking bottles?
 
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