Sitka Spruce Body vs. Pine

[D_W_PGH]

Pine gets thrown around a lot as a telecaster body material. Varies a lot in density, and depending on where you live, what's easily available. Lots of the eastern white pine here isn't particularly dense to say the least. Southern yellow (longleaf?) pine is available, but it's dense and heavy compared to other pine.

In the quest for a guitar that really vibrates (not for practical reason, other than I like it), would a heavier sitka spruce billet be better than pine (stiffer, and noticeably so)? I see sitka billets on ebay that are dry and come out to about 32 pounds per cubic foot (which is on the high end for sitka).

I see an old post on here about whether or not sitka is strong enough - not in question here, the billets on ebay are above the high end of sitka's published density.

 

[Andy54]

I'm sure a spruce body would be great but maybe not a resonant as pine.

The other aspect would be that it would ding very easily although that would be a fast track to reliced vintage look.

 

[Crafty Fox]

I believe Parker made a spruce version of the 'Fly' some years ago. Never played one, only saw one photo but I did find it an interesting concept.

 

[Freeman Keller]

The thing that makes spruce in general so desirable as a "tone wood" for the tops of acoustic guitars is it high stiffness and strength (Youngs modulus) measured both with and across the grain. The grain itself can be very tight and consistent, and of course can have some beautiful silking or bearclaw.

It is also used for carved topped instruments like archtops and mandolins, but again, these are acoustic and you are looking for a combination of stiffness, strength and vibration characteristics. I don't see any reason it couldn't be used for an solid body guitar but frankly I have never seen it. I do buy a lot of Sitka and Lutz and a small amout of Adi for acoustic guitars - it is moderately expensive compared to the other traditional solid body guitar woods.

Btw - I have built four telecaster style guitars from hundred year old Ponderosa pine from a historic old barn, they sound perfectly fine but the whole "barncaster" idea is kind of tongue in cheek. I'm also one of those people who takes the entire tonewood argument for solid body electric guitars with a grain of salt - obviously it makes some difference but I think there are so many other things that affect the sound of the guitar. On the other hand I think it is very important for acoustics. Your milage will vary.

 

[D_W_PGH]

Thanks, Freeman. I do have some other spruce to make flat tops and archtops, but I haven't used it yet (and may not in a while).

I doubt anyone could hear the difference between spruce and pine in a telecaster (I don't know if they could hear anything in general, unless maybe you get into 10 pound guitars and then still very minor differences).

I like the idea of spruce stiffness because I'm supposing it may make a guitar "feel alive".

The spruce blanks that I see are closer to flat sawn, but heavy - resawn "sinker" wood (and cheap). I agree on the barncaster thing, the appeal to me is making a really cheap guitar, not something with some sort of mojo. thus far, I really like cherry - it talks end to end, but is a bit dense and a slightly thinner body is nice.

I've only made two solid bodies out of cherry, so it's a bit premature to declare it the most tooth vibrating solid for electrics.

I play a large percentage of the time unplugged, and just get a thrill out of a guitar that feels alive in the hands. I don't think the amp "feels" it or makes a different sound to reflect it, though.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I have recently built two chambered guitars, a set neck LP sort of thing that weighs about 1-1/2 pounds less than a solid body and a screw neck tele sort of thing that had almost 2 full pounds of wood removed. The LP thing is close enough to my personal LP clone (same pickups) and I included clips of both on the build thread. There is a very subtle but detectable (maybe) difference in sound. There are recent build threads floating around if you want to see what I did.

I haven't had a chance to do anything with the chambered tele thing other than play it but since my son has one of the pine barncasters with the same pickups I've been planning to get it back and do a little side by side evaluation. One of the things I plan to do is the "calibrated pluck sustain test" - just to throw a little more kerosene on the old sustain arguement.

Along with a bunch of acoustics of various shapes and sizes (and woods) I have built the five tele clones, two LP clones, two 335 copies (semi hollow bodies), one ES-175 copy (hollow body), and a true acoustic f-hole with spruce top. I like spruce to work with, it is softer than many other woods but not as bad as WRC or redwood, and I think I have a starting understanding of how to relate to its stiffness and how to voice a top. It just isn't a wood I would choose for an electric guitar however.

 

[Clinchriver]

Never built a tele out of pine, this is Lutz Spruce, Curly redwood

 

[moosie]

I, too, like a Tele (or any guitar) that shivers when I play it. I much prefer quartersawn maple necks on my Fenders for this reason.

Yes, spruce is stiff in relation to it's weight for acoustic tops, but how much of that relies on the fact that it's always quartersawn? If you use flatsawn billets, would you expect them to be stiff as well?

What about using other species, where the wood is specifically QS? Even the traditionals like alder. Noticeable difference in the way it shakes?

The cherry comment is interesting. Was it QS or flat? It would be a friendly guitar building wood, for sure, but I've felt too heavy for standard designs. But if it really 'moves', then I'm seeing a cherry/spruce Thinline in my future...

 

[ebb soul]

My special tele builds get a spruce body, hollow with a spruce cap no f hole.
Toneful az all getout.

 

[Ronkirn]

Sitka worked pretty darn good here...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stratocaster-discussion-forum/104487-ok-so-i-promised-here-ya.html

r

 

[D_W_PGH]

Sitka worked pretty darn good here...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/stratocaster-discussion-forum/104487-ok-so-i-promised-here-ya.html

r

That's a piece of wood that fought for sun or water or something, for a very long time!

I'm thinking something more divey or filthy looking, or ringing a friend of mine who sorted through spruce about 45 years ago at a boat lumber supplier. I know he has a lot of 8/4 spruce left that he'd intended to saw down into arch tops, it was sold as deck wood at the time (maybe it still is).

That one turned out pretty good, though - shame it's a stratocaster!

 

[otterhound]

The thing that makes spruce in general so desirable as a "tone wood" for the tops of acoustic guitars is it high stiffness and strength (Youngs modulus) measured both with and across the grain. The grain itself can be very tight and consistent, and of course can have some beautiful silking or bearclaw.

It is also used for carved topped instruments like archtops and mandolins, but again, these are acoustic and you are looking for a combination of stiffness, strength and vibration characteristics. I don't see any reason it couldn't be used for an solid body guitar but frankly I have never seen it. I do buy a lot of Sitka and Lutz and a small amout of Adi for acoustic guitars - it is moderately expensive compared to the other traditional solid body guitar woods.

Btw - I have built four telecaster style guitars from hundred year old Ponderosa pine from a historic old barn, they sound perfectly fine but the whole "barncaster" idea is kind of tongue in cheek. I'm also one of those people who takes the entire tonewood argument for solid body electric guitars with a grain of salt - obviously it makes some difference but I think there are so many other things that affect the sound of the guitar. On the other hand I think it is very important for acoustics. Your milage will vary.

As it is said , seeing is believing . Picea Abies . Locally harvested .

 

[crisscrosscrash]

I built this one out of some tightly grained spruce (labelled "Western Spruce" -- I think it's just White Spruce). Anyhow, SUPER light, and acoustically snappy and loud. I am building another tele out of the same wood currently.

 

[Widerange Hum]

I've made three spruce-bodied guitars. Two sitka, and one I don't know the species. The unknown species was by far the lightest, and certainly didn't look like sitka. About a three pound body, and it was absolutely ferocious, tone-wise. Same pickups and bridge, I moved them to a mahogany thinline, and it's a totally different sound.

The other spruce guitars, I didn't notice as much of a difference in tone. But that lightweight stuff was insane. Buzzsaw tone. Everything turned up to 11, bass, treble, all of it. Super crisp, snappy, ferocious. Did I mention ferocious?

I will say that all three spruce bodies were a pain in the butt to work. It's soft but freakishly strong. You get weird tearout, you get spots that don't want to cut, you get chunks of wood pulling up with the carpet tape you've secured your templates with. It's weird stuff. Memorable, for sure. But I'm not looking to repeat the experience.

 

[Old Deaf Roadie]

Sitka is airplane wood! It is used in wood & fabric aircraft structures due to it's high weight to weight ratio. I personally prefer a harder tone wood & generally avoid conifers & other evergreens.

 

[Old Deaf Roadie]

Sitka is airplane wood! It is used in wood & fabric aircraft structures due to it's high weight to weight ratio. I personally prefer a harder tone wood & generally avoid conifers & other evergreens.

Strength to weight ratio. My bad...

 

[otterhound]

At this time , I believe it appropriate to bring up the Spruce build for Alan Holdsworth . I will add nothing else and allow any interested to form their own opinion/s .

 

[D_W_PGH]

As it is said , seeing is believing . Picea Abies . Locally harvested .

Any thoughts on the stiffness of norway spruce? Resonance, etc? (as said above, not in regard to the sound quality plugged in, but the vibes coming from the guitar to the user).

 

[philosofriend]

Spruce can have an exaggerated difference in strength between the soft white summer wood and the brown winter wood. In model airplane making and acoustic guitar repair it is not unknown to use slivers carved out of the dark wood only.
I've never tried to rout it, but I believe Widerange Hum that it can be weird due to the dramatic hard/soft grain.

Because of the large soft/hard ratio of the grain, it makes a more difference than you might think whether the spruce is quarter sawn or flatsawn.

I still have fond dreams of a Jazz archtop I owned for a year with a carved spruce top. Best living room electric guitar ever!

 

[D_W_PGH]

Spruce can have an exaggerated difference in strength between the soft white summer wood and the brown winter wood. In model airplane making and acoustic guitar repair it is not unknown to use slivers carved out of the dark wood only.
I've never tried to rout it, but I believe Widerange Hum that it can be weird due to the dramatic hard/soft grain.

Because of the large soft/hard ratio of the grain, it makes a more difference than you might think whether the spruce is quarter sawn or flatsawn.

I still have fond dreams of a Jazz archtop I owned for a year with a carved spruce top. Best living room electric guitar ever!

I expect that the difference will be a lot.

I work almost entirely by hand. The most challenging woods to plane cleanly are the woods that have really weak earlywood and harder late wood. The older the wood is, the more powdery the early wood seems to feel (though improper drying can torrefy it, too), and the harder the late wood seems to be.

My preference for something rift or so with spruce is only cosmetic. I haven't decided what I want to make the neck out of on this guitar, I'm taking it as a challenge to build cheap, but there are two things I won't compromise on - nuts and tuners. Nuts aren't expensive enough to worry about, and nothing drives me up a wall more than cheap tuners.

I have enough scrap that a cherry neck is effectively free (over the course of building other things in a given year, there are always some quartered pieces big enough for a neck on a tele), but it doesn't help with making "that junk look" that i'm looking for here.

The other thing I don't know about spruce is how well or poorly behaved it is when it's flatsawn.

Because I work by hand, I sort of look forward to the feel of the hand work. I think I'm going to plane it and then burnish it hard to make the latewood stand above the early wood. Dents won't matter, it's going to be padded with varnish, and the kids will get a hold of it for sure.

On the other hardware front, other than tuners, I kind of like the bulky chinese toploader bridges on a tele. I have one on my first cherry tele, and it is the most vibrating s.o.b. that I've played. I'm attributing that to the cherry, but it may just be the particular cherry that I've used.

The norway spruce I mentioned above, I sort of bought and stashed aside. I'd like to make a carved archtop guitar or 6 at some point in the future, but the first one won't be with that top pair.

I was pondering what I'd bind spruce with last night. That doesn't really fit the vibe, but ash can be worked so that it's really flexible if it's split (think baskets) and I might bind the spruce with ash to get a nice dive look.