Silk & Steel vs. custom light phosphor bronze

[LGOberean]

I know silk & steel strings have been mentioned before in this Acoustic Heaven sub-forum. But a cursory search did not reveal a thread specifically about this type of string set vs. the more “standard” types of acoustic steel string alternatives (phosphor bronze, 80/20, etc.). Plus, my question is more focused on the “physics” of silk & steel vs. phosphor bronze, so hence the new thread.

I’ve strung guitars with silk & steels before, but it’s been quite a few years, and I never made a permanent change to them. So, considerations of string tension and set up come to mind. More specifically, I have a tele style acoustic/electric that I’m thinking of stringing this way, this one…

It is set up for 11s, and it’s currently strung with D’Addario EJ26 Phosphor Bronze Custom Light strings (.011-.052). I am considering stringing it with D’Addario EJ40 Phosphor Bronze Silk & Steel (.011-.047). There is a significant difference in string tension between the two sets, 148.57 lbs. vs. 127.02 lbs., respectively.

It would be great if someone actually has used the EJ26 set and switched to the EJ40s. But your experiences with comparable strings of a different brand would be helpful, too. (I know, for example, that Martin has a silk & steel set that is very close to the D’Addario set in terms of string diameters in the set.)

If any of you have done this switch and made it permanent, did you make any adjustments to the guitar’s set up to compensate for the lessened string tension?

 

[Dreadnut]

Silk and steels aren't great strings for tone; you may wish to try GHS or John Pearse Silk & Bronze for better tone.

 

[PhredE]

I know silk & steel strings have been mentioned before in this Acoustic Heaven sub-forum. But a cursory search did not reveal a thread specifically about this type of string set vs. the more “standard” types of acoustic steel string alternatives (phosphor bronze, 80/20, etc.). Plus, my question is more focused on the “physics” of silk & steel vs. phosphor bronze, so hence the new thread.

I’ve strung guitars with silk & steels before, but it’s been quite a few years, and I never made a permanent change to them. So, considerations of string tension and set up come to mind. More specifically, I have a tele style acoustic/electric that I’m thinking of stringing this way, this one…
View attachment 691215

It is set up for 11s, and it’s currently strung with D’Addario EJ26 Phosphor Bronze Custom Light strings (.011-.052). I am considering stringing it with D’Addario EJ40 Phosphor Bronze Silk & Steel (.011-.047). There is a significant difference in string tension between the two sets, 148.57 lbs. vs. 127.02 lbs., respectively.

It would be great if someone actually has used the EJ26 set and switched to the EJ40s. But your experiences with comparable strings of a different brand would be helpful, too. (I know, for example, that Martin has a silk & steel set that is very close to the D’Addario set in terms of string diameters in the set.)

If any of you have done this switch and made it permanent, did you make any adjustments to the guitar’s set up to compensate for the lessened string tension?

127/148 = about a 16% difference in tension

Ooops, scratch the rest of that post! Now, more coffee! (sorry about that)

 

[Freeman Keller]

Silk and steel strings have been around for as long as I have been playing guitar, at least 50 years. They have never caught on - must be a reason.

The primary reason people use them, of course, is the reduced tension - they are simply easier to play. Only you can decide if their tone is to your liking and the only way to find that out is put a set of fresh strings on your guitar, play it and record it with a good mic, then put the PB's on and play them. Listen to the recordings blind (not knowing which is which) and decide. You think you should be able to "remember" the differences - studies show its very difficult.

Either way, see if you like the tone both acoustically and with your guitar plugged in. The composition of the string windings should affect both sounds, maybe in different ways.

Next to the issue of string tension. 11 to 47 or 52 are very light strings for an acoustic guitar, slightly heavy for an electric. The most common "light" gauges have about 160 pounds on a normal 25.5 scale guitar, most acoustics are braced for that much tension. If you significantly reduce the tension the driving force on the top is reduced, the guitar gets easier to fret and bend but it might start sounding muddy. Again, only you can decide whether that is acceptable.

String tension does affect the setup of the guitiar. Easiest way to tell is to measure it with both sets of strings (duh). Reducing the tension will mean less relief (which could be good bad) and may slightly lower the action (again, might be good or bad). If you are on the edge of playability with the PB's you might find your guitar starts to buzz - that might be tolerable plugged in but not acceptable acoustically.

So, bottom line, strings are cheap, try them and see. As with anything that affects action, measure it first and then decide if you need to change it - pretty simple to do a set up if required. What I think of them doesn't matter, if someone wants them on their guitar I'll put 'em on and set it up accordingly.

 

[LGOberean]

Okay, allow me to clarify what's behind my OP...

What I'd really like is a classical/nylon string guitar, but since I really shouldn't be buying another guitar right now, I thought of this option, restringing my acoustic/electric tele with silk & steel strings.

I currently use the aforementioned EJ26 Phosphor Bronze Custom Light strings (.011-.052) on it. I use 10s on my teles (D'Addario EXL110 Nickel Wound Regular Light Gauge, .010-.046), and the difference in using the 11s on the acoustic/electric with a Tele neck is hardly noticeable. So I wasn't thinking of switching because of a softer feel/ease of playing motivation. The guitar practically plays itself as it is right now.

I had this thought because of the tone. Silk & steel strings would more closely mimic the sound of nylon strings. What I'm after is the tone, and from what I recall, I liked the tone of silk & steels, at least initially. It's a vague memory now, but IIRC the reason I didn't make a permanent switch was S&S strings didn't seem to last as long.

I'm already second guessing my idea. I really like the way my a/e tele sounds, even unplugged when it comes to noodling around or playing quietly after the wife is asleep. Even though it's a bit of a hard sell to the wife right now, maybe I just need to hold out for buying a classical.

 

[PhredE]

Okay, allow me to clarify what's behind my OP...

What I'd really like is a classical/nylon string guitar, but since I really shouldn't be buying another guitar right now, I thought of this option, restringing my acoustic/electric tele with silk & steel strings.

I currently use the aforementioned EJ26 Phosphor Bronze Custom Light strings (.011-.052) on it. I use 10s on my teles (D'Addario EXL110 Nickel Wound Regular Light Gauge, .010-.046), and the difference in using the 11s on the acoustic/electric with a Tele neck is hardly noticeable. So I wasn't thinking of switching because of a softer feel/ease of playing motivation. The guitar practically plays itself as it is right now.

I had this thought because of the tone. Silk & steel strings would more closely mimic the sound of nylon strings. What I'm after is the tone, and from what I recall, I liked the tone of silk & steels, at least initially. It's a vague memory now, but IIRC the reason I didn't make a permanent switch was S&S strings didn't seem to last as long.

I'm already second guessing my idea. I really like the way my a/e tele sounds, even unplugged when it comes to noodling around or playing quietly after the wife is asleep. Even though it's a bit of a hard sell to the wife right now, maybe I just need to hold out for buying a classical.

LGOberean,

Ah, I see! Well, classical guitar is something I do know a little about.. (been playing for a while).
Let me toss out the obvious -- is it possible to just put classical type strings and just play it?
If your setup is good, you might not need to tweak it much if at all (although, many classical guitars have action typically of about 2.8mm-3.00 high e at the 12th fr, and 3.5mm low E at the 12th fret). So you might want to raise it a tad to make it more amenable to that style. Plus, the nut on your guitar is quite a bit narrower than on a true classical (typically about 52mm wide). That might work ok *if* you don't ever need to play amplified. Classical sets offer a LOT less tension -- ranging from about 75lbs up to about 110lbs.

If playing amplified is a requirement, maybe get your hands on a stick-on or under strings/over the tie-block piezo transducer. I'd point you to either of the Kremona UP-1 (stick on unit) or the Kremona NG-1 or SG-1; they are not spendy and offer pretty good sound (about $40 and $70 respectively).
...it's just one idea, maybe someone else will ring in with some better suggestions/ideas (?)

If that doesn't work for you, I can point you to some budget classical guitars of decent quality that are quite reasonable in price (say $150-$300 range). There are decent instruments available out there but some searching and keeping an open mind is key (of course, with any 'factory' guitar the ability to take the assembled unit and do fine tweaking is very, very handy and often required).
What you find at the big name guitar stores and the most common name brands most of the time don't offer great price/performance.

 

[LGOberean]

I had a classical guitar about 5 years ago, but sold it, mainly because of the width of the neck at the nut, 2.04". I've got short fingers and find certain reaches...well, a stretch on a classical with standard nut width. Also, the one I had wasn't acoustic/electric, and I wanted to have the option of gigging with a classical.

So I'm not inclined to try nylon strings on my a/e tele. I may still try the silk & steel experiment, but most likely will just direct my GAS toward a classical with a narrower nut width and built-in electronics. And actually, I've already had my eye on one: a Córdoba Fusion series Orchestra CE. It has a 1-7/8" nut width, solid western red cedar top, rosewood back & sides, ebony fretboard, Fishman Presys Blend preamp. At $800, it's not what I'd consider too expensive, but it would take all of my gig money from 4-5 gigs to save up for that.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Larry, a couple of things. A true "classical" guitar is a very special critter - it will have a wide flat fretboard, is very lightly braced (fan or possibly one of the newer lattice or double tops. Normally with a tie block and big plastic rollers for the fat strings. The action is usually higher and if you really get into classical music, technique becomes very important.

A number of manufacturer have come up with "hybrid" nylon string guitars. They tend to have fretboards around 1-7/8, a tiny bit of radius. Often with cutaways and even electronics. They often have truss rods, neck joints are different than the traditional Spanish heel and they might have bracing more like a steel string. They are designed for steel string players who want to add a different sound to their mix. Yamaha, Cordoba, Taylor and others make these.

There is one more group of nylon string guitars that are intended more for jazz style of play - they typically are amplified, have thinner bodies, a fretboard that feels even more like a steel string. The Gibson Chet and some Godins come to mind. This is the Gibbie (in front)

My point here is that while there are options, you need to try each one carefully before you commit,

Can you put nylon strings on your tele - well yes but not very well. You'll have to tie knots or buy strings with beads on the ends, they won't work very well in the small diameter tuners, you should make a new nut (both so the slots fit and because you will want a higher action). Your fretting hand might feel very cramped. Since the tension will now be about 100 or 110 pounds not only will you loose much of the drive for the top but ironically the relief will be less when you really want more. However its worth a try just to see what you think.

I like to think that each member of the guitar family - steel string, nylon string, electric.... - is different - feels different, sounds different, looks different, plays different. It is certainly easy and harmless to put the silk and steel or even nylon strings on your A/E - as I said before, strings are cheap. Let us know what you think.

 

[PhredE]

Freeman makes some good points.

LGO, I am working up a more detailed reply, but stay tuned and check back as I will include a set of links and other comments too. Many of them sort of expound upon what Freeman says in his post.

The main thing I would ask at this point is: for what reason (what type of music, in which settings, etc) and why?

As Freeman suggests, definitely spend some time playing as many as you possibly can in the meantime. When you have a few minutes I recommend a serious look around Thomann USA site:
https://www.thomannmusic.com/classical_guitars.html - that should get you to a good starting point. At Thomann, you will find brands you cannot normally find here in the US and the website is easy and efficient to navigate. Disclaimer: I have bought 2 guitars from them and had a stellar experience -- so I do recommend them.

FYI: Other brands/models which might be worth a look: the Yamahas (for the cutaway+electronics) -- however, QC isn't quite what it used to be on the low-end guitars. Kremona makes some very, very good guitars (based in Bulgaria). The Performer series are comparable to the Cordoba you are considering. There are a couple Alhambra models which might fit the bill as well. The LaMancha line might also have a couple that would work ok (they are a budget/lower-end Chinese made line offered through Thomann). These are generally < $400USD. I don't think they offer anything in all solid wood. Laminate back/sides is a given.

For kicks, this is my main practice guitar now (after break-in + some enhancements):
https://www.thomannmusic.com/thomann_classica_s.htm ($133USD+ shipping)!
All solid wood guitar for $133!!! I love it. The unusual wood combination produces a slightly 'different' sound/tone, but still a very good one. Oh, and price, doesn't always indicate quality. (My 'real' performance guitar is a 1981 Alvarez-Yairi CY140 -- a Ramirez 1a clone essentially) it is parked most of the time these days.

 

[uriah1]

I have been digging the NB lights on my acoustics. Softer
on these old hands and a natural tone about them..imho