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Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by ADinNYC, May 25, 2011.
Lotta nice guitars in this thread. Thanks for sharing.
Anyway, here's mine (Fender Custom Shop 54):
D.I.Y.! It's a Classic '60s neck on an old Fender ash body that someone (with some serious skills) took a router to. I refinned the body in DR.
Sorry for the poor quality, but it's a polaroid photo from 1968.
It's my first Tele, a 1965, and it's my friend playing it while I play his acoustic/electric.
That is much closer to Fenders original Fiesta Red. Nothing like my original '65 Dakota, (a Duco (nitrocellulose) '58 Cadillac color), noticeably darker than the more orangy/pinkish Fiesta.
Fiesta is (was) a Duco '56 Ford Tbird color.
Nice guitar though.
This happens a lot…. i.e. a discussion of what color really is whatever color it’s supposed to be…..
I’m speaking generically, just to share my experience over the years in several fields where color accuracy was paramount…. Stuff many know, but never factor into the color “thought process”. Telemarkman just reminded me of this and perhaps it will help others as they request a specific color.
First thing… yer lookin’ at a Computer monitor aintcha…. Had it calibrated? No… I’m not kiddin’…. Really…. Had it calibrated? I didn’t think so. That means if you’re viewing a color on it, that color is being “skewed” by what ever tint, hue, color temperature, etc. etc, the monitor is set at… Many monitors have a setting for Warm (reddish) Cool, (bluish), and any thing in between… so a Red on my monitor can and probably does look wayyyyy different than the same red on some other monitor. Walk into any "Best Buy" and look at all those TV's... their just LCD monitors today.... They are usually all set to the same video "feed" so you're seeing the same thing on all of 'em... but.... notice the color.... while close, they're all a little different aren't they.
In the world of commercial art, there are “systems” for calibrating the monitors used in commercial art situations. I remember 40 years ago, (before LED monitors) we used Pantone reference swatches to match colors. Ya bought 'em at the Graphics Art supply houses and did what ya had to do... So… again…. I’m not kidding... Had yer monitor calibrated…. If no… then shaddup about color, ‘cause ya don’t know what ya don’t know…
Next… comparing a 50 year old color to a modern attempt at the same is futile, even the Borg won't try it... There is this little phenomenon known as color shift, or color degradation.
Didja know there are NO permanent Reds. By that I mean in the world of color pigments, some are more stable than others… red is the worst. Today they’re pretty good, but time, UV, and the environment WILL make ‘em all shift…. All ya gotta do is wait..
So…. A ’65 Dakota red was/is real DuPont Duco Nitrocellulose lacquer. Do ya know what Nitro does over time…. It gets amber…. As in Butterscotch blonde….the Butta is the Nitro turning amber with time…. It’s also why there is NO absolute correct Butterscotch Blonde… So…. Ya got red, and the red has some yella “growing” in it… give it time, and the original Red, will become more “orange”. Now…. Factor in, it has a Nitro clear coat on it too….. So... a vintage Dakota red does not look anything like it did 40 -50 years ago…. Nothing….
Now, let’s screw with yer heads a bit more…. There is NO real attempt for a manufacturer to have a Dakota Red to have the shade match exactly a Dakota Red swatch from the vintage years… That's understandable, it would be incredibly expensive to do so, thus ya just order up a few tankers of red paint… see if it’s close, and slap a label on it that sez.. “Dakota Red Paint” Do not drink…. Ya take some, put it in a paint cup and squirt it on guitars and Voila... You got Dakota Red Guitars…
Now the guitar shown, that I made, is sprayed with Sherwin Williams auto paint…. then clear coated with Nitro... Satin in this case.....The “color guy” at the shop that I have mix my “stuff” knows his shi*… He does colors for vintage auto restorations… so when I sed I wanna can of paint that matches Duco 2590-H 70757 246-90723H 60-69 58 Cadillac, he doesn’t say, “Huh, What” Do I look like a goofy paint wizard?” I’d answer “Yeah, you do kinda, ” if he did ask though...
Nope, he punches all the data into the computer, and out pops a code, he goes back into the inner sanctum of the Fortress of Paint Solitude, and in a few minutes, he crawls out, and gives me a can of paint…
Now... here’s the kicker… his computer doesn’t give a shi* about what time, UV light and the environment has done to anything sprayed with Duco 2590-H 70757 246-90723H 60-69 58 Cadillac in the 60’s… all it knows is what that paint looked like to a teen looking at a Dakota Red whatever in 1962 and does it damnest to duplicate THAT…
If you DO have a 58 Caddi and need to match the Red, you can bring in a piece of the car, and they can scan it, and the computer can give you a pretty darn close approximation of that shade… but NO guarantees…. It takes a real artist to blend a new coat into a 50 year old coat and have it completely absolutely invisible… Matching colors perfectly is art at the highest level, and that happens where the paint meets the body...
So when youze guys are lookin at a Vintage color today, it’s probably a pretty good approximation of what it looked like back when “vintage” wasn’t vintage, it was “new”… what that guitar's color doesn’t approximate today is 40 -50 years of putting up with the environment and whatever the owner of said guitar has subjected it to.
Please…. This is NOT a “slam” of colors used by any manufacturer today or any manufacturer’s lack of “precision” in the color area.… it’s just an attempt to “bring ya up to speed” on the reality of colors.
If you buy, as an example, Carpet, Formica, Corian, wall paint, whatever… you may be instructed to buy all you are gonna need, from the same “lot”… because the next “batch” out of the manufacturing plant may not match perfectly even though it will be called the same color, and have the same product code on it. It’ll be close, but if “stuff” from two different manufacturing lots are “mated” next to each other, there will probably be a subtle difference revealing a “line” where the two were joined.
The reason I have gone on and on about this is, I get guys that say, I wanna yella or blue or Red guitar the same exact color as one in my gallery… then when they get it they say, “hey, you stoopid or sumpin? I wannid it the same… it aint the same….fix it”… yeah, right…
So I ask ‘em ...”What do you have your monitor’s color set for?”... The answer… “Dude, like I have this totally awesome game, Natzi Brain sucking lizards, from Muni-Mula... so I set is so the Red Blood is just so completely “sick”…. You gotta see it….” To which I reply, “Uh huh? Natzi Lizards ya say? Awsome”…..
Ron Kirn (all from the same batch)
Excellent post, Ron.
Hey Ron, my Scotch sippin' friend from the Deep South ...
Of course you're right, and of course I thought exactly the same (but with fewer words) before I posted.
I don't know whether my monitor is cali ... calibr ... Oh, just forget it ....
My only referrence for the color is comparing it to the other Dakota Red guitars in this thread - on the same monitor - and then compare those to my own original 1965 Tele.
And while "all" the others could pass for Dakota Red, brightlight's looks noticeable different. It also looks almost identical in all the pics.
So it's not like I was unconcious when I posted ... Hee, hee!
Just to avoid any misunderstandings: I'm speaking about the color of my '65 Tele as it was when I owned it, from 1967 to 1970, i.e. "as new" - not "ambered" by time.
I prefer sonic blue anyway....
Amazing post Ron...thanks!
Ron i always enjoy your posts, and learn something new from each of them. Thanks.
Dakota Red Nash
Here's my Dakota Red Nash:
Here's a homebrew in an old Krylon color called Banner Red. About the closest I have seen to Dakota from a rattlecan.
Looks close on my monitor ...
I'm a little late to this party, but heres mine for the record books. Yes - its a 66 and you can see the yellowish undercoat on the left side. I'm working up better pictures for you all and hope to have them posted sometime soon.
Really nice looking guitar.
I had a 1960 Esquire,not Dakota Red-aged Cherryburst w/maple neck.Had financial
difficulties early on in my marriage,and had to sell it ($125).This was and is the worse
mistake I have made in my 67 years! I think about it now,and tears come to my eyes!
Probable value now $25,000-Think I'm gonna cry again! Best Regards,
Here's my DR '52 CS
I love red guitars but could never chose between Dakota and Fiesta.
So, when in the mid 90s, Fender brought out some guitars in Lipstick Red, which seemed to be right in the middle between Dakota and Fiesta I had to have one.
In the 16 years I've had it, it has faded just a tiny amount.