Should we allow non-Christians on the worship team? // Worship Leader Wednesday

[studio]

I had already lost long ago I'm joking of course.

And about the rules, I did. It just seems strange that we cannot discuss Christianity with the support of scripture due to censorship and politics. My place of employment and my kids schools are less likely to censor than a forum but what seems even stranger since Christians all believe in the same Bible, yet can somehow disagree on a forum on what the scripture means.

But alas, I'm getting too far off topic. Sorry again, I'm not great at writing in English language, I think most people on forums say "You talk English just fine" but if only they knew lol

The issue might be because this forum is not exclusively for or about Christianity.
It is open for all houses of worship even though I have witnessed good intentioned folks driving others off of this forum.

 

[JuneauMike]

Nothing wrong with people playing the music of other people's cultures, of course.

But why not just say that worship team members all come from the congregation? Seems like that would settle it.

If you open it up to musicians who aren't in the congregation, seems like you pretty much lose your ability to discriminate - except artistically.

Hmm, not sure what culture you are referring to. But a lot of small to mid-sized churches don't have the talent within the congregation to have a really good Sunday worship every single Sunday. It kinda takes 2-3 good ensembles or a roster of maybe 8-10 musicians of various instruments to sustain a strong worship program. I think it's common for some churches to use visiting musicians already. I've played for a couple of churches and could play every weekend if I just wanted to play. The question here is whether to use musicians who are not Christian, and therefore aren't really worshipping.

 

[black_doug]

A Christian friend of mine plays guitar on another worship team at our church. We were discussing this question today over dinner. He’s been playing in various churches as long as me, maybe longer. His opinion is that only one musician is needed. I tend to agree, though I can understand the desire to fill out the music with more instruments, for various reasons.

 

[budglo]

We have used musicians from other churches to fill in occasionally . We also just recently did an acoustic set when our drummer was out . We’ve also just had the WL and his acoustic a Sunday or two . Depends on the situation I guess . Visiting musicians on a regular basis can be a real thing in some churches .

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Hmm, not sure what culture you are referring to.

In this case, religious culture. To include more than just religion, I said "culture." We have all kinds of differences, not just religious.

An example: Some of the people I play with have politics that are the opposite of mine. We think of music as a chance to bring people with differences together. In church-speak, that's what people mean when they say "open and affirming."

But a lot of small to mid-sized churches don't have the talent within the congregation to have a really good Sunday worship every single Sunday. It kinda takes 2-3 good ensembles or a roster of maybe 8-10 musicians of various instruments to sustain a strong worship program. I think it's common for some churches to use visiting musicians already. I've played for a couple of churches and could play every weekend if I just wanted to play. The question here is whether to use musicians who are not Christian, and therefore aren't really worshipping.

It's a poser. There's probably no perfect solution — though lots of people think making music is, itself, a form of connecting with a higher power. One solution might be to encourage the team leader to embrace that idea.

I had an odd experience once. Someone on Craigslist was starting a gospel band and wanted a guitarist, so I answered. When I told the guy I'm Jewish, he thought I was joking about playing with him. Like, why would a Jew want to play gospel music?

What seemed obvious to me — that there's some great gospel music and great gospel acts (for instance, I love playing Staples Singers tunes) — went right past him. He really thought my call was a prank. He was polite about it, but I didn't get an audition.

He's the kind of person who doesn't get it. A team leader who does get it will probably have an easier time working with non-Christians and Christians of other sects.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . A theological discussion about modelling amps is fair game, a theological discussion about polyester and shellfish is probably gonna get a sad-face emoji. . . .

Yup. So let's keep it kosher!

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Maybe for most P&W guitarist but I've become very proud that I don't fall into that category (pride comes before a fall, humble thyself before the Lord, yada yada yada). As the fad seems to be "This is the best for worship and my favorite worship band uses this so I went out and bought it".

That's settled law. The only pedal mandated for every church guitarist is the EH C9 Organ Machine!

. . . So I suppose we should allow convicted felons on parole with histories of violence and various types of assaults on the platform next . . . .

If you mean the TDPRI platform, that's also settled law. We do. We do expect them to play Teles, though.

If you mean the church riser, why not? Just ask them to behave. There are plenty of violent Christian criminals. Every faith has its sinners. Some are great players.

. . . you're saying essentially that it's okay for a church to host a wolf in sheep's clothing as long as the music doesn't suck. . . .

What better way to save a wolf?

 

[hotraman]

Awesome thread! Love the comments and humor in this spot of the forum !

 

[klasaine]

Awesome thread! Love the comments and humor in this spot of the forum !

Yeah, and now I just found out that I have to get an EH C9 organ machine pedal.
Ughhh ... I hate those things

 

[hotraman]

Yeah, and now I just found out that I have to get an EH C9 organ machine pedal.
Ughhh ... I hate those things

Me too. Don't care for that EH series.
I went and got a Kurzweil PC-4 workstation / controller. It has great organ sounds too. Want to get better at playing B3.

 

[JuneauMike]

Yeah, and now I just found out that I have to get an EH C9 organ machine pedal.
Ughhh ... I hate those things

I Googled it and as it turns out, it's just a guitar pedal. Not at all what I was thinking.

Still, that's a hard pass.

 

[klasaine]

I do have my dotted 1/8 delays fully sorted.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

That's settled law. The only pedal mandated for every church guitarist is the EH C9 Organ Machine!

If you mean the TDPRI platform, that's also settled law. We do. We do expect them to play Teles, though.

If you mean the church riser, why not? Just ask them to behave. There are plenty of violent Christian criminals. Every faith has its sinners. Some are great players.

What better way to save a wolf?

Amen!

Salvation is not a joke, nor to be mocked. I have seen God literally use a pedal save a soul. God can use anything as HE has used a donkey to talk and a fish to make the poor wealthy by spitting out money.

Yeah, and now I just found out that I have to get an EH C9 organ machine pedal.
Ughhh ... I hate those things

Maybe the EQD Organizer shall be your salvation

 

[studio]

But perhaps people have the wrong idea of what Worship is and how it should be. It's not longer holy or sacred these days and that's the sad truth. And in most cases, on forums, people cannot tell the difference between being skilled at their instrument I'm performance and being skilled in the art of worship, hence why things like the holy spirit and annointment get mocked.

Why not let that convicted felon sing praise songs?
What makes "your brand" of "holiness" better than, a person brought up from a prison ministry?

Who the hell made you (or any of us!) the gatekeeper for that spirit to express and worship through that broken vessel of a man or woman?

Seems kinda legalistic when musicians willing to play have to be vetted by forms, questionnaire, and other such qualifiers.
I have seen people sing and play their heart out at a church service, then never heard from again. Maybe that was in the plan or the way their life took a turn.
God knows the heart.

I think the problem is, trying to weed out the ones that don't fit the mold of your church's musical clique.

There's usually a certain vibe coming from the church musicians in those buildings. Sometimes trickling down from the WL or from the denominational overseers.

Like you said earlier about God not being mocked...
So The Spirit calls someone to sing and play and you might not like his shirt, or his guitar with a missing string, or a faint smell of alcohol on their breath.
So you deny them access to be next to you praising the one who saved both of you.

Of course, nobody wants to be called out as a legalistic chump, so they usually have a list of reasons why they do what they do.

I have been to churches where the greatest display of hope, mercy and grace is watching a drug and alcohol rattled individual cry out to God for salvation. For the remission of their affliction.


In my guitar lessons class, I have a good percentage of special needs individuals that will never be denied access to worship through song! YMMV.

 

[studio]

A Christian friend of mine plays guitar on another worship team at our church. We were discussing this question today over dinner. He’s been playing in various churches as long as me, maybe longer. His opinion is that only one musician is needed.

One Musician +
One Sound Guy+
One Video Guy+
One Lighting Guy......

 

[mRtINY]

So I suppose we should allow convicted felons on parole with histories of violence and various types of assaults on the platform next, if you know what I mean. I'm guessing not though. Not talking about unbelievers, just sticking to what you said in context, you're saying essentially that it's okay for a church to host a wolf in sheep's clothing as long as the music doesn't suck.

This is interesting. I guess that people don't "get saved" in your tradition if a felony conviction forever excludes them from being a "believer" worthy of praising God with music in a church context....

On the other hand, if a "believer" raised in the church is taking advantage of the attention he gets from being up front with the young women, maybe he should be asked to step down... if there are any young women left in any church these days.

Meh, God uses whom He chooses to use to accomplish what He decides needs to be done.

I'm glad we can agree on what music doesn't suck, at least.


-tINY

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

Why not let that convicted felon sing praise songs?
What makes "your brand" of "holiness" better than, a person brought up from a prison ministry?

Who the hell made you (or any of us!) the gatekeeper for that spirit to express and worship through that broken vessel of a man or woman?

Seems kinda legalistic when musicians willing to play have to be vetted by forms, questionnaire, and other such qualifiers.
I have seen people sing and play their heart out at a church service, then never heard from again. Maybe that was in the plan or the way their life took a turn.
God knows the heart.

I think the problem is, trying to weed out the ones that don't fit the mold of your church's musical clique.

There's usually a certain vibe coming from the church musicians in those buildings. Sometimes trickling down from the WL or from the denominational overseers.

Like you said earlier about God not being mocked...
So The Spirit calls someone to sing and play and you might not like his shirt, or his guitar with a missing string, or a faint smell of alcohol on their breath.
So you deny them access to be next to you praising the one who saved both of you.

Of course, nobody wants to be called out as a legalistic chump, so they usually have a list of reasons why they do what they do.

I have been to churches where the greatest display of hope, mercy and grace is watching a drug and alcohol rattled individual cry out to God for salvation. For the remission of their affliction.


In my guitar lessons class, I have a good percentage of special needs individuals that will never be denied access to worship through song! YMMV.

Because singing a song and teaching them about the gospel isn't the same thing as handing them an important position within the church. People seem to twist this, unknowingly in order to make their point. Of course, I'm not here to stop or discourage anyone. I'm just pointing out the biblical aspect.

I have also seen the broken, drugged, and unsaved cry out for God in my church... Just never from the pulpit.

And nah, don't twist my words here, never denied anyone's access to worship alongside me but if you're going to tell me that someone who knowingly plays on the worship team but has no interest in that worship who's worship is just as tangible or moreso, then you just aren't being honest with yourself.

Great! BUT Your guitar lesson class isn't the same as handing someone a position within the church, again, I realize that this thread features features some Jewish members that are paid to play for a Christian worship team but looking at this from a Biblical point of view, not a feeling point of view.

This is interesting. I guess that people don't "get saved" in your tradition if a felony conviction forever excludes them from being a "believer" worthy of praising God with music in a church context....

Nah, they do, just in a more logical sense. We just tend to be careful and smart of who we let on the team. We don't deny salvation or any chance of redemption just because we don't allow anyone on the platform. Allowing someone at the alter and the platform are two different things. You guys are getting that mixed up lol

Trying to negate that and try to imply me or my church have less compassion for the unsaved just because you disagree or see it in a different way is poor form. If you or other members disagree with how my church does things, that's fine but you and other members shouldn't twist things just because you don't like or agree with me. Everyone at my church gets a fair shot at salvation, if we didn't we probably wouldn't be a growing church as opposed to a dying church or a stagnant one! Tehee

 

[mRtINY]

Yeah, and now I just found out that I have to get an EH C9 organ machine pedal.
Ughhh ... I hate those things

I got one that stopped working... the bypass is fine. You can put it on your board as I'm out of room.

 

[JuneauMike]

Allowing someone at the alter and the platform are two different things. You guys are getting that mixed up lol

I suspect you are conflating those two things; the alter and the platform. But ok.

And just to add to this: The term "worship leader" is a creation of the modern church and its not really addressed in scriptures. There is plenty written on "leadership" within churches or congregations. Whether the term "worship leader" is adopted in the same way Subway calls its employees "sandwich artists" or whether the term "leader" has tangible meaning in a church seems to be a mixed bag in the churches I'm familiar with. To me a leader is in charge of something. Playing music so others can sing along in a praise setting never felt to me like actual supervisory experience.

Our church I think has a qualifying standard for such things (and I presume it implies that the musician attends our church to begin with), but I'm not really sure what they are. I do recall that a previous pastor was trying to chase off a particular musician (he was a bass player who liked to move a bit too much while playing) so the pastor put something together to get the job done. But again, all that was in the past. I think Babylon Bee actually did a parody story once that tracked pretty well with this one. I also recall playing music with a really sweet and talented girl who ended up having a child out of wedlock after she went off to college. I knew her story and played music with her without hesitation. More importantly, we all prayed for her. She's doing great now, btw. In fact she's a worship leader in a church in the Lower 48.

Generally if the people involved in music at our church figures out that you are pretty decent at an instrument eventually someone is probably going to invite you to sit in on a rehearsal or two. But I think it's totally appropriate for your church to set whatever standards they want for the music ministry. And high standards are always better than low standards. So I wouldn't criticize your church at all.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

I suspect you are conflating those two things; the alter and the platform. But ok.

I never said the alter and the platform isn't the same thing, never implied it. I think you and the other member got confused with the two.

You also implied that I don't support the unsaved having a fair chance at worshipping in truth alongside Christians. That's simply untrue, nowhere have I implied that. In fact, it's quite the opposite. As I've said before, I work with all kinds of people, I have all kinds of friends in the work environment who are atheists, lgbt/trans, and more. I invite them to my church, and they love our music. We sing together - BUT that's from the congregation side, not on stage, when I'm not playing on a Sunday (as our church has a rotation of teams).

Some have come to know and accept Christ, some have gone and enjoy the music and the sermon but never really grasped the meanings. It's not my place to say what any church believes and what any one member here believes but I'm glad that my church does things with order and according to the Bible.