I did some calculations on the interwebs based on 50W draw at idle (which is way more than it really is as the amp is 15W) and it comes to about $32 per year if I leave it on for 12 hrs a day. My electric bill can increase that much every month based on the weather so I am not really worried about $30/yr.
Should I Just... Give Up?
- Thread starter BrettFuzz
- Start date
Here is perfect example of my nature (and I am a human, I promise):
When I hit the bottom 3 strings (EBG) with a pick on my Tele and it sounds like someone threw a spear thru one of my ears and it came out the other, yes, I am equating that with "bad". When I try to tame the highs and it muddies up the rest of the frequency range, yes, I am equating that with "bad".
Conversely, when I plug into the tube amp and I do the same thing - hit the bottom 3 strings (EBG) with a pick on my Tele - and it does not sound harsh or unpleasant and at the same time it's clear and not lacking definition, I am equating that with "different" and "good".
I do not have to A/B the amps to hear that difference.
Brent Hutto
Tele-Afflicted
So have you never encountered a tube amp that sounds "bad"?
Many years ago I had a little Champ 600 that was extremely "bad" by your definition. So I suspect there are a wide range of sounds from tube amps.
Many years ago I had a little Champ 600 that was extremely "bad" by your definition. So I suspect there are a wide range of sounds from tube amps.
I never made a blanket statement that all tube amps sound good.
Brent Hutto
Tele-Afflicted
I guess I'm trying to get a gauge of how specific your tone needs are. Seems like you've tried so many different SS and digital amps and found them wanting, perhaps the question I meant to ask was "What tube amps do and don't suit your needs"?
Because my feeling is, if you've tried lots of tube amps and only found a couple that sounded good that makes the odds of finding a SS/digital amp that sounds good extremely remote. But if you've played quite a few very different tube amps that sound good, there's probably a SS/digital amp that will get you in the neighborhood of ONE of those, you know what I mean?
SRHmusic
Friend of Leo's
FWIW, I totally agree about trying to find an amp that you like as is, without needing pedals. Some boost or reverb is useful, but I always prefer an amp that has a good voice on its own. (Again, the BCA is really good here, and other tube amp happy guitar players have come up and commented on it, often thinking it was a tube amp.)
Or how about smaller tube amps like they feature on the Five Watt World YouTube channel?
The main reason I wouldn't want to leave an amp on all day is just the faster aging from heat, and the hours accumulating on the tubes. That's why I suggested a point to point wired amp, over one with a circuit board. Also a lunchbox style mini head doesn't put the heat into the components like a combo chassis above the tubes. As to tube life and supply, that's another reason to go solid state if you find what you like.
Or how about smaller tube amps like they feature on the Five Watt World YouTube channel?
The main reason I wouldn't want to leave an amp on all day is just the faster aging from heat, and the hours accumulating on the tubes. That's why I suggested a point to point wired amp, over one with a circuit board. Also a lunchbox style mini head doesn't put the heat into the components like a combo chassis above the tubes. As to tube life and supply, that's another reason to go solid state if you find what you like.
Bobbyoso
Tele-Meister
Tube amps require far, far less skill to dial in than any digital amp. A Fender twin or AC-30 have a handful of adjustable parameters; something like a Katana or Fractal FM-9 has hundreds. Get the early reflections wrong, the reverb won't sound right, and even if you lucked into setting up a good sounding amp sim (and that's all it will be, luck), now it sounds fake because you screwed the pooch with the bad reverb. And unless you take an extensive audio engineering curriculum, it will take years of trial and error to understand what each parameter on each amp and effect does. Gain staging schema, the order, config, and amount of each of dozens of effects and how they variously interact with different amp sims will be trial and error, unless you've spent time either watching or doing a lot of recording and/or sound engineering.
Most people can figure out how to drive a go-kart without a lot of training; almost no one can jump in a helicopter and fly it without extensive training and study.
All my tube amps are braindead simple to get a great sound out of, because they each have a very, very narrow range of tones available--and they're tones I want. A modeling amp is capable of an almost unlimited range of tones (and tactile responses), and demands a much, much greater level of tone-sculpting skill on the part of the operator.
So, either content yourself with a tube amp that has a few good tones in it, or learn how to operate the dizzying array of variables a modern modeler will present you with. Problem is, even if you own a great (tube) 5e3 or Twin, you'll never get JCM800 or SLO100 sounds from it. And even within the relatively much more limited range of a given tube amp's performance, it will take you weeks of effort learning to set up an SLO if you're used to setting up yr Twin.
So sure, if you are looking for a narrow range of tones (and limited or nonexistent fx) and there's a tube amp that does everything you want and nothing you don't, that's the right choice. You'll still need to learn how to operate any fx pedals you decide you need, but at least your amp will be dialed. Of course, as soon as you start lusting after AC30 tones, your Twin won't cut it, so you'll need an AC30. And then learn where the sweet spots (for you) are on the new amp.
But, if you are looking for a blank-slate laboratory to create a wide range of sounds and tactile responses and *actually know how to dial 'em in*, digital works. As far as "this tone is superior" BS, that's opinion. And if you've ever listened to a recorded track in isolation vs. in a mix, some of the nastiest iso tones work magnificently in context, that's another learning curve to negotiate.
Bottom line (and I have owned great vintage and boutique tube amps for decades and several modeling platforms including a first-version Katana 50 that I PREFER in a large latin/jazz horn band to anything else I've used, including a '63 Super Reverb and a miced 5e3 and 5f4), most digital disappointment comes down to user error. If you can't build it with a Boss GT1000, a Helix, or even the lowly Katana, then you need something that limits your options like a great tube amp.
But just like acrylics are different from oils, there's no "best". If there were, there'd be a thousand YouTubes of people in double-blind tests reliably picking tube vs. modeler tones with a high degree of accuracy--and there are NONE.
Most people can figure out how to drive a go-kart without a lot of training; almost no one can jump in a helicopter and fly it without extensive training and study.
All my tube amps are braindead simple to get a great sound out of, because they each have a very, very narrow range of tones available--and they're tones I want. A modeling amp is capable of an almost unlimited range of tones (and tactile responses), and demands a much, much greater level of tone-sculpting skill on the part of the operator.
So, either content yourself with a tube amp that has a few good tones in it, or learn how to operate the dizzying array of variables a modern modeler will present you with. Problem is, even if you own a great (tube) 5e3 or Twin, you'll never get JCM800 or SLO100 sounds from it. And even within the relatively much more limited range of a given tube amp's performance, it will take you weeks of effort learning to set up an SLO if you're used to setting up yr Twin.
So sure, if you are looking for a narrow range of tones (and limited or nonexistent fx) and there's a tube amp that does everything you want and nothing you don't, that's the right choice. You'll still need to learn how to operate any fx pedals you decide you need, but at least your amp will be dialed. Of course, as soon as you start lusting after AC30 tones, your Twin won't cut it, so you'll need an AC30. And then learn where the sweet spots (for you) are on the new amp.
But, if you are looking for a blank-slate laboratory to create a wide range of sounds and tactile responses and *actually know how to dial 'em in*, digital works. As far as "this tone is superior" BS, that's opinion. And if you've ever listened to a recorded track in isolation vs. in a mix, some of the nastiest iso tones work magnificently in context, that's another learning curve to negotiate.
Bottom line (and I have owned great vintage and boutique tube amps for decades and several modeling platforms including a first-version Katana 50 that I PREFER in a large latin/jazz horn band to anything else I've used, including a '63 Super Reverb and a miced 5e3 and 5f4), most digital disappointment comes down to user error. If you can't build it with a Boss GT1000, a Helix, or even the lowly Katana, then you need something that limits your options like a great tube amp.
But just like acrylics are different from oils, there's no "best". If there were, there'd be a thousand YouTubes of people in double-blind tests reliably picking tube vs. modeler tones with a high degree of accuracy--and there are NONE.
I have not found an acceptable SS amp in decades of trying. Sure some are OK. But I just cant dial in what I really want. There is just something about tube tone that's hard to define.
With all the messing around with tubes etc, I truly wish I could find one.....
With all the messing around with tubes etc, I truly wish I could find one.....
colchar
Friend of Leo's
For a few years now I have been trying to find a SS/modeling amp that would be "eh, close enough" to any of the tube amps I have been (un?)fortunate to have played (not even a specific one). I keep coming up short every time. And, truth be told, I have not even played that many tube amps and not even for that long... but the few I played, even for just a few minutes, seem to have ruined me forever for the SS/modeling amps. It's frustrating at best. I also have the misfortune of being the type of a person who walks into a room that I had only been to once before in my life and notice immediately that the couch was moved 2 inches closer to the tv and the plant pot is now facing the other way. So frustrating to live like this; I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Anywhoo... here are some of the SS/modeling amps I have tried and my experience/opinion of them. Please keep in mind this is my own subjective opinion and if yours differs please don't take any negatives personally.
Roland Cube 80x - too muffled, could not get it to sound open no matter what, sounded like the amp was in a closet and not in the room with me
Katana 50 - this sounded fantastic after putting up with the Cube, the breakup and the presence (amp in the room feel) were miles ahead of the Cube; probably should have stopped here but... it could also be a 'false memory'... it's been a while
Katana 100 MK2 - started using a looper pedal and wanted the FX loop; sounded bigger than the 50 because it was... bigger? But also brighter... not in a good way; could have been the new, not yet fully broken-in speaker
Katana Artist Mk2 - only got it because I got a great deal on it; much much darker sounding than the 50 and the 100; had it for quite a while but could not fully get on with the Waza speaker, a speaker swap might have made this one passable
HotOne Ampero Stomp 2 with Headrush/Alto speaker - this had really good usable presets and overall sound; I just could not get that amp-in-the-room sound/presence no matter what FRFR (or other kind of) speakers I tried
Catalyst 60 - my latest; it sounds like a recording of a guitar tone, rather than an amp in the room (even tho it technically is an amp in the room). Weird because it's the Katanas that are often flagged as uninspiring, they lack character, etc., which is probably true, but at least they sound like the amp you are plugged into is what's generating that tone... and this is much worse, sounds way fake.
I also have a Roland Micro Cube (first version), Mustang I v2, Mustang LT25, Mustang Micro, also AmpliTube 5, Guitar Rig 6, Bias FX2 plug-ins and have also tried a bunch of other plug ins, out of which Neural DSP's Tone King was my favorite. I found out that I don't like anything smaller than 10" speaker and plug-ins sound great but not amp-in-the-room great.
The reason I have been looking for a SS/modeling amp is that I work from home and every hour or so I have about 5-10 min to spare so I grab a guitar and play... so I leave the amp on and ready all day... probably 10 hrs a day at the minimum, but more realistically 12+ hrs (yes, I have no life). A SS/Modeling amp I can either leave on all day or turn on/off every hour, it does not care. My one tube amp, tho, would hate me if I did either of the two things. I am looking for that amp-in-the-room sound/feel primarily because anything that does not provide that, no matter how great it sounds for what it is, is totally uninspiring to me.
But... hear me out... what if I got like 2 other tube amps and split the 12-14 hr duty among the 3 of them...4-5 hrs a day each? Does that even make sense? Am I crazy? Ok, don't answer this last one. Man... talk about the least efficient way to solve a problem... lol.
Or should I just turn on my one tube amp in the morning and leave it on all day and play it and deal with the consequences/mainteanance/rapair cost as they arise?
WWYD?
For the record, I feel really fortunate to have these kinds of problems because, compared to some of the rest of the world, these are not really problems... they are the "first world problems", a.k.a., "how much money should I spend on the thing nobody ever needs ever..." lol.
Either way, your input is appreciated and I thank you.
Isn't there software you can use that includes amp sims?
Or how about a Tonemaster or one of the Orange SS offerings that are so highly thought of?
This was my next suggestion… Tonemaster Princeton Reverb and a pedal or two should do the trick.
Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the suggestions.
I am not really chasing a specific tone... I just want a tone that does not sound artificial (to me). I really don't care if it's the AC30 tone, or Tweed Twin tone, or JCM800, or... As long as it does not sound artificial I am happy with it. There is something about the mid to upper highs in SS/modeling amps that I don't like and cannot get rid of (yes, I twisted all the knobs and connected the amps to my computer and yada, yada). Additionally, some SS amps have that mud (mostly in the mids) that I don't like as they make the amp sound like a recording and not the amp that is making the sound. There were periods of time (quite long actually) when I only had and played SS amps and I could still hear all those artifacts (and I did not even have a chance to A/B them with a tube amp).
The Tonemaster line does not appeal to me because most are designed for beautiful cleans and I could not really care any less for cleans in an amp.... as far as I am concerned my amp does not even have to have a clean sound. If I wanted a clean sound I could literally use any SS 1x12 amp as I am not sensitive at all to differences in the clean sound. Pedals will not happen for me at all, there is about 0% chance for that. Not because I don't like them or do not believe they sound good or anything like that; it's only because I do not want stuff and clutter on my floor. Orange SS amps, I believe I only played one briefly and was not in love with the sound; perhaps because I did not spend enough time with it. Amp sims, I tried every single one that had a free trial, and still have the free versions of some of them and, yes, they sound great but they are played thru my studio monitors and sound like they are being played thru my studio monitors.
To whoever misinterpreted my post as another one of those "tube vs SS" tirades - that is as far as it could have been. I only wanted to give my personal experiences and my personal concerns with SS (not a general 'tubes are better than ss' statement) and ask for advice on whether I personally should keep chasing a SS amp, considering my personal concerns, or if I should just play the tube amp. I got some really good insight that made me rethink my position on how to live with a tube amp (just shut up and play the darn thing) and that's exactly what I needed. Again, I appreciate all advice I got. Thanks everyone
I am not really chasing a specific tone... I just want a tone that does not sound artificial (to me). I really don't care if it's the AC30 tone, or Tweed Twin tone, or JCM800, or... As long as it does not sound artificial I am happy with it. There is something about the mid to upper highs in SS/modeling amps that I don't like and cannot get rid of (yes, I twisted all the knobs and connected the amps to my computer and yada, yada). Additionally, some SS amps have that mud (mostly in the mids) that I don't like as they make the amp sound like a recording and not the amp that is making the sound. There were periods of time (quite long actually) when I only had and played SS amps and I could still hear all those artifacts (and I did not even have a chance to A/B them with a tube amp).
The Tonemaster line does not appeal to me because most are designed for beautiful cleans and I could not really care any less for cleans in an amp.... as far as I am concerned my amp does not even have to have a clean sound. If I wanted a clean sound I could literally use any SS 1x12 amp as I am not sensitive at all to differences in the clean sound. Pedals will not happen for me at all, there is about 0% chance for that. Not because I don't like them or do not believe they sound good or anything like that; it's only because I do not want stuff and clutter on my floor. Orange SS amps, I believe I only played one briefly and was not in love with the sound; perhaps because I did not spend enough time with it. Amp sims, I tried every single one that had a free trial, and still have the free versions of some of them and, yes, they sound great but they are played thru my studio monitors and sound like they are being played thru my studio monitors.
To whoever misinterpreted my post as another one of those "tube vs SS" tirades - that is as far as it could have been. I only wanted to give my personal experiences and my personal concerns with SS (not a general 'tubes are better than ss' statement) and ask for advice on whether I personally should keep chasing a SS amp, considering my personal concerns, or if I should just play the tube amp. I got some really good insight that made me rethink my position on how to live with a tube amp (just shut up and play the darn thing) and that's exactly what I needed. Again, I appreciate all advice I got. Thanks everyone
Bobbyoso
Tele-Meister
Everything you wrote is reasonable, and well thought out. The only point I 'd make is that, since you want only overdriven/distorted tones, AND you feel that pedals will add clutter, you'll be fine IF you find a tube amp that does all of the ods/distortions you want, and your taste never changes.Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the suggestions.
I am not really chasing a specific tone... I just want a tone that does not sound artificial (to me). I really don't care if it's the AC30 tone, or Tweed Twin tone, or JCM800, or... As long as it does not sound artificial I am happy with it. There is something about the mid to upper highs in SS/modeling amps that I don't like and cannot get rid of (yes, I twisted all the knobs and connected the amps to my computer and yada, yada). Additionally, some SS amps have that mud (mostly in the mids) that I don't like as they make the amp sound like a recording and not the amp that is making the sound. There were periods of time (quite long actually) when I only had and played SS amps and I could still hear all those artifacts (and I did not even have a chance to A/B them with a tube amp).
The Tonemaster line does not appeal to me because most are designed for beautiful cleans and I could not really care any less for cleans in an amp.... as far as I am concerned my amp does not even have to have a clean sound. If I wanted a clean sound I could literally use any SS 1x12 amp as I am not sensitive at all to differences in the clean sound. Pedals will not happen for me at all, there is about 0% chance for that. Not because I don't like them or do not believe they sound good or anything like that; it's only because I do not want stuff and clutter on my floor. Orange SS amps, I believe I only played one briefly and was not in love with the sound; perhaps because I did not spend enough time with it. Amp sims, I tried every single one that had a free trial, and still have the free versions of some of them and, yes, they sound great but they are played thru my studio monitors and sound like they are being played thru my studio monitors.
To whoever misinterpreted my post as another one of those "tube vs SS" tirades - that is as far as it could have been. I only wanted to give my personal experiences and my personal concerns with SS (not a general 'tubes are better than ss' statement) and ask for advice on whether I personally should keep chasing a SS amp, considering my personal concerns, or if I should just play the tube amp. I got some really good insight that made me rethink my position on how to live with a tube amp (just shut up and play the darn thing) and that's exactly what I needed. Again, I appreciate all advice I got. Thanks everyone
Otherwise, the amount of clutter which occurs when you want eight or so different ODs/distortions will be vastly worse with eight different tube amps than with one amp (tube OR ss) and several pedals. If you want JTM-45 OD, you won't get it from a Mesa dual rec, nor vice versa.
Hope you are able to achieve your goals without playing Groundhog Day, buying a different tube amp every time you develop a need for a specific unique overdrive quality. Even a Mesa Road King, which is crazy versatile, won't do every od/distortion you might need in the future.
Of course, finding "the one" tube amp for you, if you believe in such things, can be very rewarding. But in ~60 years of playing, I've found my tastes and perceptions of great tone has evolved many times, and occasionally reverted to an earlier opinion. And I've held onto 9 great old tube amps (and sold ~50) because of exactly that situation, but I still can't cover every tone and tactile response with 9 superb tube amps, so I find ss, and modelers, and pedals to be useful in those situations.
I'm sure you'll figure out what works best for you at any point in yr journey, but if that changes a lot over time, you're gonna have "clutter", either pedal clutter, or 2500 lbs of tube amps clutter while you torch yr bank accounts. Having gone thru this process, pedals are like owning a cat; amp clutter is more like having 4 occasionally unruly pitbulls.
Just saying--caveat emptor. But the heart wants what it wants; we all have our own path to get to the tones in our head, and we all learn from that evolution, so outside of spending time and $$$ to greater or lesser degrees, the journey is an education, and helps you figure out your ultimate destination. And it's tons o'fun, so it's really hard to go wrong.
Red Ryder
Friend of Leo's
You are telling it like it is. I've gone through a (was going to say a ton but that would be like one Peavey Renoun) zillion amps. About the time you think you got it right your brain says not yet and it's off to the races again. One thing I don't do is keep amps. I sell them to help move on. Fortunately I have finally arrived to the end of the amp highway. And bought a cheeseburger.Everything you wrote is reasonable, and well thought out. The only point I 'd make is that, since you want only overdriven/distorted tones, AND you feel that pedals will add clutter, you'll be fine IF you find a tube amp that does all of the ods/distortions you want, and your taste never changes.
Otherwise, the amount of clutter which occurs when you want eight or so different ODs/distortions will be vastly worse with eight different tube amps than with one amp (tube OR ss) and several pedals. If you want JTM-45 OD, you won't get it from a Mesa dual rec, nor vice versa.
Hope you are able to achieve your goals without playing Groundhog Day, buying a different tube amp every time you develop a need for a specific unique overdrive quality. Even a Mesa Road King, which is crazy versatile, won't do every od/distortion you might need in the future.
Of course, finding "the one" tube amp for you, if you believe in such things, can be very rewarding. But in ~60 years of playing, I've found my tastes and perceptions of great tone has evolved many times, and occasionally reverted to an earlier opinion. And I've held onto 9 great old tube amps (and sold ~50) because of exactly that situation, but I still can't cover every tone and tactile response with 9 superb tube amps, so I find ss, and modelers, and pedals to be useful in those situations.
I'm sure you'll figure out what works best for you at any point in yr journey, but if that changes a lot over time, you're gonna have "clutter", either pedal clutter, or 2500 lbs of tube amps clutter while you torch yr bank accounts. Having gone thru this process, pedals are like owning a cat; amp clutter is more like having 4 occasionally unruly pitbulls.
Just saying--caveat emptor. But the heart wants what it wants; we all have our own path to get to the tones in our head, and we all learn from that evolution, so outside of spending time and $$$ to greater or lesser degrees, the journey is an education, and helps you figure out your ultimate destination. And it's tons o'fun, so it's really hard to go wrong.
I use both a modeler and a tube amp, in a dual amp setup. The modeler is an Ampero 2 Stomp. I plug that into a Mooer Baby Bomb (30 watt solid state power amp in a pedal) which then plugs into a 2x12 cabinet. It changes to sound from a mic'd amp to an amp in the room. It makes a huge difference in how it feels, make sure to turn off any cabs or IRs.
jbmando
Poster Extraordinaire
I sincerely believe that you should try a Peavey 112 Bandit. I have several, both USA and China versions. The Made in USA that I prefer over all the others has a very usable on board overdrive. It is not a modeling amp, but it gets any rock tone I want, including early Clapton and LZ.
Since you don’t really care about clean tone, and you want tubes, why not an Orange Micro terror or Micro Dark Terror half stack? It has tube preamps and ss power, and if it craps the bed in ten or fifteen years, you’re only out $150 for the head.
JRapp
Tele-Afflicted
Buy an acoustic.
2HBStrat
Friend of Leo's
That is not correct. I have an 1967 Fender service brochure that says that Fender amps (blackface at that time) are designed to be on 24 hours a day. I have accidentally left my Super Reverb on (standby) all night before with no problems.
ReverendRevolver
Friend of Leo's
I'm adding to the "leave on a tube amp" plan.
If you're worried about killing the amp, buy a couple monoprice 5w or 15w models for $120-$200 each. If it dies, sell it for $80 (someone can fix it) and buy another one. You'll always have a backup. Crazy how cheap they are.
If you're worried about killing the amp, buy a couple monoprice 5w or 15w models for $120-$200 each. If it dies, sell it for $80 (someone can fix it) and buy another one. You'll always have a backup. Crazy how cheap they are.
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