Shin's Music Dumbloid

Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by csapo, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. cousinpaul

    cousinpaul Friend of Leo's

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    Here's a close up of the board from Amplifiednation's clone. The ceramic cap circled in red is said to be the only change he made.
     

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  2. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Upon closer inspection, I wouldn't be surprised if this thing were a twist on a CJOD. The big differences would be the tone circuit and probably the clipping diodes.

    ...I don't think that a pair of 2N7000's and 3 BAT41's could be crammed in that space under the cluster of wires.

    And the ZD has a unity gain stage for the 2nd half of the op amp - that makes the output transistor buffer redundant.

    It really wouldn't surprise me if the clipping diodes were LED's, truth be told. Or the RF drive combo kind of makes sense.

    The jazz/rock switch connects to ground - it's either adding another tone cap in, or bypassing some resistance.

    There's just not enough room on that little experimenter's board for a lot of circuit complexity, especially if a bit of it has to go towards input and output buffers. The almost silly part is that measuring the value of the tone and accent pots would have revealed a lot, and required ZERO degooping.

    Again - I also LOVE that the small prototyping board doesn't really allow room for "premium" caps - there are ZERO sonic mojo components in this thing IMO. It's also why you see the tantalums instead of big honking 1uF Panasonic film caps.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. MASONish

    MASONish Tele-Holic

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    You guessed it Keith. It is a combination of LED & op amp. And yes it does sound far superior to the Zendrive. A lot more gain on tap.
     
  4. cousinpaul

    cousinpaul Friend of Leo's

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    Thanks for sharing. Have you de-gooped yours? I'm kinda curious about the IC.
     
  5. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    The more I look at the images, it looks to be a CJOD if it has LED clippers.

    The tone pot doesn't look to be wired like a Zendrive. The jazz/rock connects in proximity to the tone circuit wiring. It looks like the accent pot also connects to the wiring for the tone pot.

    So that would mean that the bulk of Shin's tricks were tweaks to a TS tone circuit.

    But back to what you're asking - the IC should then be in the TS family of chips. Since there's nothing "hi-fi" on that pcb, I'd be surprised if it was a Burr Brown or anything like that. Probably 4558/LM833/1458/NE5532. Something like a TL072 would probably be disappointing as it wouldn't recover from clipping like the bipolar-input (general purpose) op amps do.

    That's a super big guess though.
     
  6. cousinpaul

    cousinpaul Friend of Leo's

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    I put a socket in one of my SD-1's a while back and rolled some different IC's through it. Interestingly, I found the AD712 to be the smoothest of the lot. It was also the darkest sounding in my ZD clone. Not a huge difference in the SD-1 but noticeable.
     
  7. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Actually, I had to just refresh myself on the CJOD, and it did use a Burr Brown.

    This assumes that Shin was really following some template closely.

    The Boiling Point does have alterations to the TS tone circuit - smaller .15uF caps in place of the .22uF pair, a 2K pot for the tone control, etc. - these could be the basis for the differences as it's not going to sound super middy like a stock TS would.

    So if it follows the "Landy route," the chip will probably be a 4558. If it follows the CJOD route, it will probably be a BB. I doubt it's some hi-fi thing going by the low tech parts, but who knows (yet)?
     
  8. Iago

    Iago Friend of Leo's

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    Interesting what some tweaks to a "son of screamer" can do...

    .11, Thanks a lot for the topology breakdown. I'm waiting to hear more on this one, even though the sound clips/videos didn't interest me at all.
     
  9. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Some thoughts

    - People wouldnt have to spend $600 on unobtanium grail overdrives or even worry about snake oil taking them if they realized that a carefully chosen run of the mill $100 pedal and more practice could get them there.

    - note bloom sounds like it can be obtained with a nice amp played loud and some skill in playing guitar

    - after todays pecan pie my mids will be haunting me into the new year.
     
  10. Lowbassnotes

    Lowbassnotes Friend of Leo's

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    After reading this I had to take a look at the thread over on the GP. They sure were spinning circles over the fuzzy blue box-you'd a thought a formula for an instant rockstar pill had been discovered.
     
  11. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Yeah, I'm not curious as to what this thing sounds like. I just wanted to see what it was or wasn't. For me, "sounds different than a Zendrive" typically makes me curious as to why.

    And I'd even like to be wrong about some of the topology breakdown stuff, but that little piece of experimenter's board makes that hard (for me). There just wasn't enough room for Shin to go crazy with differences, and the buffers (and surrounding circuitry they require) eat up some valuable real estate.

    This opportunist - Amplified Nation? He was short-sighted enough to basically duplicate the proto-board layout, but just use pre-fabbed pcb's that he had made somewhere with his business's name on them. I know he did it to make it look the same, like that matters.

    ...Bottom line is the pcb pre-fab companies have software that someone uses, and it makes the layout compact, verified, and "pretty looking." Mr. A.N. should have gone for that if even bothering with the pre-fabbed boards. You can even order them pre-populated!

    But the use of buffers (which are kind of useless with true bypass IMO) make for a sort of "retro return back from SoS" design. IDK if the Landgraff Dynamic OD dropped the buffers when it was taken from the CJOD, which is why I think the latter was *possibly* used.

    Also - I think the Boiling Point has a pre-fabbed pcb that comes from some source that made it look similar to the board used by BYOC for their TS project or something like that? And that has the toggle switching like the Landy box, but keeps the in & out buffers because it was based on a DIY TS kit, at least in appearance.

    Bottom line - many of these things just seem to appear like the same old methods are used - take something existing and popular, maybe find something that someone else (like CJ) has already tweaked, slap the circuit on a breadboard, and start pulling out parts and subbing in different ones. That seems to be the entire "R&D" process. And that's how we ended up with all of these goofy toggles and stuff IMO - they are "add-on's" from the breadboarding stage.

    ...Only fast-forward to the present, and they are repackaged with a steep price tag, and are renamed something to make the user think they are getting a D-amp in a box or whatever. And you inspect the circuit only to find a single op amp and a handful of other parts. You'd have to be Merlin (not Blencowe - he's a smart guy) to pull off that trick, IMO.

    I just can't believe that it continues to be acceptable. If somebody offered a Strat with a mid-boost circuit in it and it was the same as what EMG offers, that wouldn't be super cool to me.

    But this is yet another instance of "boutique evidence of entropy" IMO, because you have one builder cloning someone else's thing for half the price. So we now seem to have all variations - F.B. using Joyo to basically build the whole thing and then they just repackaged it, JHS taking something you can find more affordably and charging a lot more, and now A.N. building Shin's thing at a reduced price, but still hiding the circuit particulars.

    IMO, the customer loses in every instance. But a lot of these TGP guys don't seem to care - they'll throw money at it whatever the asking price is, and despite it being a tweaked TS, OCD, Electra Distortion, whatever.

    So you have the opportunists who "feed the need" - moving on from one style of amp to the next - plexi/Vox/Dumble/Matchless/Dr. Z/Trainwreck/HiWatt/whatever is next - and we buy it based on the assertions/nudging that it's been cleverly crafted to be ___-in-a-box.

    ...Quite the thing to witness, and why I'm not much interested in things that are the hot current trend. It's more the lengths everyone will go to, and the power of suggestion that we tend to fall for.
     
  12. bloomz

    bloomz Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

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    The degooper said it's definitely not a Zen circuit FWTW
     
  13. Handonam

    Handonam TDPRI Member

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    That's fantastic! Can't wait to start making my own blue box made of Michaels craft materials and leftover electronic parts.

    In all seriousness, i'm glad it's become clearer now what it is: a more finely tuned clone with basic parts.
     
  14. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    "Finely tuned" is a subjective opinion, I'd think.

    I think it's more accurate to say "modified differently." And until we know how little/much the differences are, it might be good not to draw any conclusions.

    After all, the only thing that A.N. apparently "modified" was adding something to suppress high gain oscillation or something? I get the feeling that no one who had the Shin model even complained of this.

    I honestly would not be surprised if the modifications that Shin made are very minimal. That isn't to detract from those who consider the changes to be "more finely tuned," but IMO it could work out to the equivalent of putting 29 psi in a tire instead of 28 psi.

    ...I think A.N. won't reveal what the circuit is *precisely,* because he won't be able to sell a single one any longer - just like when it was found out that "F.B." had Joyo building them OCD clones for super cheap.

    Bottom line - will anyone learn from this wheel that continues to spin? I doubt it. Even though I'd bet no one will be using a Dumbloid a year or two from now.
     
  15. bloomz

    bloomz Tele-Holic Ad Free Member

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    Not looking to pick a fight - but you sure seem interested - best analysis I've read of possible circuitry



    SRSLY? I'd take that bet. Are they all going to implode or something? :D
     
  16. kp8

    kp8 Friend of Leo's

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    Please: a translation for those of us who don't speak entirely in acronyms?
     
  17. TheSmokingMan

    TheSmokingMan Banned

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    Clay Jones overdrive
     
  18. kp8

    kp8 Friend of Leo's

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    Thanks. Never even heard of that one! ha!
     
  19. D.Allen

    D.Allen Tele-Holic Vendor Member

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  20. 11 Gauge

    11 Gauge Doctor of Teleocity

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    Talk about "extreme mythology over nothing," and IMO that is what the CJOD is. It's a TS with the silicon diodes replaced with a pair of LED's. It also has a lot more gain, but there's absolutely no deviation from the TS circuit WRT EQ shaping, at all.

    CJ put them in a swirly painted box, gooped the prototyping board, and sold them for serious coin. But they get resold for even more ridiculous prices, just like the Klon and other such stuff. I think someone sold one for ~$1,500? :eek:

    IMO, the CJOD, Landgraff Dynamic OD, and Rockbox Boiling Point are all basically the same thing, just with the latter two getting a toggle to select either LED's or other clipping diodes.

    Lots of people who don't know about the CJOD know about the Landgraff pedals.
     
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