Setup Order

[Blrfl]

This isn't about a Tele, but it's nuts-and-bolts enough to be worth posting here:

The neck on one of my guitars has two problems that need fixing: the fingerboard isn't parallel to the body at the neck joint and the strings are pulling too much bow in the neck. My notched straightedge says the bow is in the middle and slacking the strings doesn't change the angle where the neck meets the body.

My gut says the neck should be shimmed before adjusting the truss rod because that will change the scale length a bit and might affect how much pull the strings exert on the whole thing.

What's the collective's opinion on that?

 

[schmee]

The string is a straight line between two points; the bridge and the nut. IF the string height to the fretboard is the same, parallel to the body or not, shouldn't matter for the bow in the neck.
Your theory is right about shimming first, but it's a miniscule thing. Either is fine.
JMHO

 

[Dostradamas]

I would agree you should get the neck to body angle you want (or lack thereof) before you start adjusting the truss in the neck.

 

[Wayne Alexander]

My advice - first leave the strings on , and adjust the truss rod so the fretboard is as close to flat as you can make it. The string path will then tell you whether you need a shim to get the action in the range you want with the bridge saddles where they are now. If adjusting the bridge saddles can't get you the action you want, add a shim.

 

[Telenator]

Take it to someone who knows what they're doing, and ask them to show you. A verbal description isn't going to cut it and you don't want to get frustrated with your guitar. There's no pride to be had stumbling through this.

 

[SixStringSlinger]

I’m certainly not an expert, but I do all my own set-ups.

In general, I don’t think it matters what order you do your set-up in, since tweaking one thing affects another and round it goes. I do believe it’s important, however, to cycle through in the same order as you zero in on what you like.

That said, that’s for doing full set-ups from scratch. When you have one specific problem you’re trying to address, there’s usually one “best” way to address it.

If your problem is neck bow, I’d say your solution is the truss rod. It’s technically true the tightening the rod (and therefore straightening the neck) will lengthen the scale length, but that’s just academic; the change shouldn’t be to such a degree that it makes any real difference to you. Just tighten the rod slowly and easily and give the neck time to adjust before you judge whether it works for you.

Shimming the neck may lower the action in the middle of your neck, but tue strings will be even closer to the frets at the low and high ends. So your action mid-neck may or may not be as low as you’d like, while your lower- and upper-neck action May end up too low. You’ll have to raise the action and end up where you started.

 

[Boreas]

IMO, I would get the neck straight first - in other words NO relief WITHOUT string tension. Then, see where the neck points on the saddles with a straightedge. That will let you know if you need a shim or not. I suspect you will not need to shim at all. But I don't how you would set a neck angle with a big upbow.

 

[Peegoo]

@Blrfl

Changing the neck angle with a shim does not affect the scale length; that is permanently set by the placement of the frets on the neck. What it does do, however, is change the distance between the strings and the guitar's top. Go too high or too low, and you may run out of adjustment at the bridge to get the string action right where it should be for easy playing and good tone.

Getting to a good starting point helps you dial in any guitar, and there are several ways to skin this cat. Generally, it goes like this when I put a neck on a guitar.

With the strings off, I use the truss rod to set the neck as straight as I can. Check this by using a straight edge resting atop the frets in the center of the neck.

Next, set the bridge saddles' heights near the center of their up/down travel.

Hold the edge of the straight edge on the frets tops and slide it toward the bridge. With the edge of the straight edge on the frets, the far end of the edge should lightly touch the tops of (or barely skim over) the saddles where the strings break over them. If it's off to far either way, I'll usually shim the neck.

When you string it up, the neck will pull into relief under string tension. Use the truss rod to get about .012" of relief at the 8th fret. String action at the 12th fret should be in the neighborhood of 5/64" for the low E and 4/64" for the high E. All other strings are graduated between these two dimensions.

In general, I don’t think it matters what order you do your set-up in, since tweaking one thing affects another and round it goes.

The one thing that really matters in the sequence of events is to set the intonation as the last step. If you move anything else (truss rod, action, nut slots, etc.), it can throw off the intonation.

 

[LowCaster]

T.R.A.I.N :
1-Tune
2-Relief (trussrod)
3-Action (nut, bridge height and shim if necessary)
4-Intonation
5-Noodle (and repeat from 1)

(Tip from Fender masterbuilder Ron Thorn on YT)

You already know that you’ll need a shim, but that doesn’t change the order. Start from 1 and after adjusting the trussrod you can estimate how thick the shim has to be.

 

[Blrfl]

Changing the neck angle with a shim does not affect the scale length; that is permanently set by the placement of the frets on the neck.

Bad choice of words on my part. It will make a small change the distance between the nut and the saddles, but that'll be adjusted out anyway when I set the intonation.

Hold the edge of the straight edge on the frets tops and slide it toward the bridge. With the edge of the straight edge on the frets, the far end of the edge should lightly touch the tops of (or barely skim over) the saddles where the strings break over them. If it's off to far either way, I'll usually shim the neck.

Ooh, I like that. One of the problems I have now is that the incline in the neck puts the nut in a place where getting the action I want requires putting the saddles all the way down on the bridge plate and a couple of the saddles are at the end of their travel toward the neck to get the intonation in the neighborhood. Getting the neck tilted back to where it should be might help with that.

 

[user name]

If it were my guitar, I would get the neck relief sorted before I worried about anything else.
If you can't get that neck straight, shims aren't going to matter at all.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I'm having a little trouble visualizing exactly what your problem(s) are but it sounds like both geometry and relief (and maybe neck flatness). I have a very rigid order of doing things - often I can skip a step or two but I always check them. I also always measure everything before I start and write it all down.

I start by making sure the guitar is properly hydrated and has no structural issues. I'll put a guitar away for whatever time it takes for hydration to settle down. I'll also measure the geometry as it arrives on my work bench, I want a pretty good idea whether it will allow me to proceed or not - if not I do what it takes to make it right (resetting the neck, shimming)

After removing strings I'll adjust the truss rod to neutral and see where the relief is - ideally I'll have a flat fretboard, usually not. I do what it takes to make it flat, level frets, replace them if necessary. I don't use a notched straight edge - if its a new neck I know its flat because I made it that way, if it is an existing fretboard I can't do anything about it that a notched straightedge would tell me (some people swear by them). I simply decide if I can work with the frets as they are. If not it might be time for a refret (at which time I can deal with the board).

Once the frets are perfect I can proceed with the rest of the setup.

The neck angle, relief and action will all change the scale length enough to affect intonation, which is why that is the last thing I set (unless I'm making an acoustic saddle from scratch, then I'll have to deal with it). It is a good idea to understand which parameters affect each other and which order to set them. For example once the geometry is set I don't change it - the fret plane should be at its optimum starting point. I put on a new set of the strings I will be using and set the relief. It won't change during the setup and I don't touch it after that. Set the first fret action, it might need a very slight tweak but probably not. Set the 12th fret action, followed by the compensation. If I'm making a new nut or saddle the strings will have been on and of the guitar several times, I put a new set on. Finally I measure everything again and write it down.

This might help, it works for any guitar

Basic Setup

There are a couple of threads running right now where questions have been asked about leveling frets, making nuts and other setup related topics. I’ve commented a bit and I’ve received a few private messages asking about aspects that we’ve been discussion. I thought maybe it was time to...

www.tdpri.com

 

[eallen]

To restate what was said by those who already chimmed on who like many of us have setup a lot of guitars, you can't cheat reality. Scale is the distance from the nut to the bridge contact with frets precisely located to meet the mathematical equation for the most accurate notes throughout the scale. A shim may change your neck angle but the miniscule distance change between the nut and saddles will be lost with saddle adjustments needed to intonate. A shim may change neck angle resulting in slight compensation for bad relief but it will not change the actual neck relief (bow) of the neck. When a board isn't parallel to the guitar top I automatically remove the neck to ensure a shim or some sort of debri isn't keeping it from seating.

Reducing the bow is exactly what the truss rod is for. Adjust the neck flat without the strings & see how the heal frets look. If the heal frets are flat with the rest of the board but stay flat with string pressure while the neck bows I usually consider adding extra fall off on the last handful of frets to keep them from being a buzz point with low action.

As to setup order. Tune, relief, tune, action via saddle height adjustment, tune, intonation.

 

[jvin248]

.

Watch YouTube channel 'Frudua' and then dozen episodes from 'Daves world of fun stuff's.

You'll be able to fix your guitar setup in a jiffy.

.

 

[Blrfl]

Since the guitar is going on a trip this week, I set the truss rod and left the neck angle alone. That helped with some things but not others, which was expected.

This is my Stewart Stowaway, which has a detachable neck. There's already a shim between the neck and the metal plate, but it's wood and, from the looks of it, may have compressed. Once I'm done traveling, I'll custom cut something suitable (and properly-angled) out of plastic, insert it and do another full setup.

 

[Blrfl]

Four months later...

Finally pulled off the plate. The shim was two layers of thin wood that had compressed down to 0.79 mm over time and was pretty crumbly under light handling. I cut a replacement out of a 1.14 mm guitar pick, which put the neck angle better but not quite perfect. A full setup made it very playable.

 

[SRHmusic]

(On the original question) IMO a shim is only warranted if you're not happy with the bridge/saddle height when adjusting for the action you want. It's fairly independent of getting the neck itself right.

But I'd start with adjusting the truss rod to get the neck as flat/straight as possible, check and level the frets (etc.) if needed, then see how it sets up on the guitar, adjusting for your normal relief, then working on string height. At that point you'll know if you need a shim.

 

[Freeman Keller]

As to setup order. Tune, relief, tune, action via saddle height adjustment, tune, intonation.

I'm going to say this differently to cover guitars of all kinds

Measure everything, write it down, then hyrdration, geometry, frets, relief, first fret action, 12th fret action, intonaton, pickups. Tuning whenever necessary