Set-neck Tips and Advice?

[Rigel7]

Hey all. I'm starting to plan a new guitar build and I'm thinking of going with a set neck this time, which would be a first for me. So, I thought I'd do a call out for some advice on this. I'll also be doing a deep dive into my guitar building books.

Questions:

Will this be much more difficult than a Fender style bolt on?

When is a non-0 neck angle required?

Other than being associated with cheap instruments, is a scarf joint all that bad? Are there other methods you'd suggest?

Is there a neck joint style you've had good/bad luck with?

Any jigs I should look at making?

Bonus question: does a tune-o-matic have to be angled? That one's always confused me.

Is neck-through easier than set neck?

 

[FuncleManson]

I'm not sure if you're talking about a scratch build or a partscaster, or if that even matters. Here is a set-neck LP Special-type partscaster project I finished in the spring. Also, my first full paint job. I think it turned out great.



I totally winged it using parts made for a bolt-on (Rosser eastern white pine body & a maple Warmoth Hombre neck). I did a dry-run bolt-on fit first to make sure my neck angle would be OK (the Tele short bridge didn't require any neck angle, but I believe a Tune-o-matic would.).



Then I glued the neck in using original Titebond. Since I had to fill the neck holes in the body anyway, I drilled them through into the neck and glued in 3/16" poplar dowels, which essentially replaced the screws for some added strength.



Not your traditional mortice and tenon, but it's plenty solid and a little sleeker at the heel than a regular LP.

 

[Rigel7]

Hm. The dowels are a neat idea. That turned out really well!

I'm thinking from scratch. Like, wood from a hardware supplier scratch.

I'm looking at doing a 12 string, and there are only so many bridge options (fewer if you want 12 adjustable saddles). Other than that Gotoh thing, most are raised, ala ToM or a Ric system.

 

[guitarbuilder]

A set neck in my book is a mortise and tenon joint. It's harder than a bolt on neck joint, but not impossible to do. The proper tools help a lot. You've got bridge choices to make. If you want an F style bridge you may be able to get way with little to no neck angle. If you use a G style bridge than that could require a neck angle to achieve the proper action. Gibson did do some SG's with little to no neck angle in the 70's, but they are not the norm. I have used a router table and hand tools to make my set necks more often than not.

Here is one version of my necks I did:

Let's make a neck ( volume 2)

This one will be kind of LP single cut like, which is my favorite kind of guitar to play. My first American made guitar was a Gibson LP Custom in the mid 1970's. I've had LPs and variants ever since. Thanks go to Leslie West, Paul Kossoff, Tom Sholz, Peter Frampton, and all the others 70's...

www.tdpri.com

and another

Using an X carve to create a 1960 Melody Maker Tribute guitar

I like the Melody Maker. I have a 2007 reissue MM-D model. That got played a lot when I was playing in a garage band. I also have a rehabbed 1962 to 1965 MM which was turned into a travel guitar. Bought off Ebay, somebody busted the peghead off and drilled holes at the end of the body...

www.tdpri.com

and one I need to finish up when it cools down:

NR Firebird 100 dollar material budget personal challenge ratrod build

I keep my files around and sometimes go back to them for a couple more variations. For me it's not about efficiency , it's about being creative, and the challenge to do it. To me, holding a router in a template is kind of boring at this stage ( YMMV). I still do it once in a while, The...

www.tdpri.com

 

[guitarbuilder]

Other choices are to make the angle at the bottom of the neck tenon and use a flat cavity, or make the angle in the neck cavity and use a flat( parallel tenon). Both end up with the same result.

 

[Freeman Keller]

In my humble opinion, a "set neck" is one that is glued into the body of the guitar. It can be a variety of different joints but the important thing is that the geometry is "set". With acoustic guitars we talk about "resetting the neck" to change the neck geametry as the guitar ages.

The key to understanding the geometry of any guitar is that in most cases you want the fret plane to just touch the tops of the saddles when they are at their very lowest adjustment, that gives you enough adjustment to get good playable acation and still be within in the adjustment range of whatever bridge you choose.

I've written a little dissertation about how I think neck geometry works on two very different styles of guitars

Building for playability

Geometry 101 I’ve been thinking about doing this thread for quite a long time but several recent threads tell me this might be the time. If any of you have followed my ranting, er posting, you know that I am quite focused on the geometry of the guitar. I frankly don’t care what your guitar...

www.tdpri.com

Hey all. I'm starting to plan a new guitar build and I'm thinking of going with a set neck this time, which would be a first for me. So, I thought I'd do a call out for some advice on this. I'll also be doing a deep dive into my guitar building books.

Questions:

Will this be much more difficult than a Fender style bolt on?

When is a non-0 neck angle required?

Other than being associated with cheap instruments, is a scarf joint all that bad? Are there other methods you'd suggest?

Is there a neck joint style you've had good/bad luck with?

Any jigs I should look at making?

Bonus question: does a tune-o-matic have to be angled? That one's always confused me.

Is neck-through easier than set neck?

To your specific question:

1- your guitar building books should include Melvyn Hiscock's Make Your own Electric Guitar He answers a lot of them for you

2- it is definitely more difficult than a screw on neck

3- neck angle is determined by your geometry. Zero is an angle and is perfectly acceptable. Classical guitars even have negative angles.

4 - I use scarf joints on all of my heads. It is much stronger that a one piece neck and save a considerable amount of wood. I don't associate it with cheap instrurments at all

5- dovetail joints are elegant but difficult for a beginner to understand and get the angle correct. I personally don't like full width tenons, they are poorly supported and hard go make them lookd good as they flair into the body. Stay away from the Gibson "short tenon". I've never repaired a long tenon, did have to repair a short one (and told the owner that it will probably fail again).

6- I make jigs for cutting the scarf angle (I use 14 degrees) and I make templates for the tenon. If I'm doing a dovetail I have a special jig. One good thing to think about is making as many cuts as possible with the sides of your neck blank square and parallel. The minute you start cutting angles things get harder.

7- If you are talking about angling a ToM bridge with respect to the center line, yes. They do not have enough travel to compensate the strings if they are installed perpendicular. If you are talking about the stud being angled with respect to the top, no. You want the studs perpendicular to the top.

8- Neck thru is quite a bit harder to build because you will have to cut the angle at the beginning and deal with the area at the body joint. They are also longer and awkward to deal with on your workbench. Hiscock has a neck thru as one of the guitars he builds (also a set neck and a screw on), you can see some of the issues.

I'll add that I think a set neck is the way to go with any Gibson inspired guitar or any time you have an arched or angled top. I think the transition between the neck and the body can be much more elegant, unlike screw on necks which to me look clunky. Screw on necks have the big advantage that you can screw around with them until the geometry becomes right. With a set neck you better have it right when the glue goes in.

Various set necks, this is a les paul style with arched top, 3-1/2 degree angle, no overstand, ToM bridge



Semi hollow, similar to the LP


The tenon on a good set neck should be a snug but not tight fit in the mortise. Here is another lester, no gluein the joint yet. I use the same template to make the tenon and the pocket which ensures they will fit (note that the neck has not been shaped yet)






double neck, again 3+ degree, ToM's



Dovetail



By the way most of those guitars have build threads where I show the setting of the neck. If you would like a link to any of them let me know.

Edit to add a thought. One area that is possible to have problems is the transition between the neck and the body, aka the neck joint. At that point the truss rod is not effective and its very easy to get a hump or bump or ski jump. In my pictures above you can see that I'm doing most of the neck setting before the fretboard is glued on and I'm paying particular attention to to having the top of the neck extend perferctly flat to the body. Sometimes there will be a filler piece that helps with the transition like the last guitar.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Hm. The dowels are a neat idea. That turned out really well!

I'm thinking from scratch. Like, wood from a hardware supplier scratch.

I'm looking at doing a 12 string, and there are only so many bridge options (fewer if you want 12 adjustable saddles). Other than that Gotoh thing, most are raised, ala ToM or a Ric system.

I reread this and saw the part about doing a 12 string. The double neck in the above post is a 6/12, plus I have built two acoustic 12 strings. I did use a ToM style bridge which does have some limitations but actually came out pretty good. If you want to talk more let me know

 

[Peegoo]

@Rigel7

When I build a set-neck for a tune-o-matic bridge (solidbody or archtop), I shoot for a 1/2" gap at the bridge location between the face of the guitar and a straight edge resting directly atop the frets on a perfectly flat neck. It has always worked great.

I did the same with this guitar because I used a wrap-tail bridge, even though this one has a screwed-on neck.

 

[Freeman Keller]

^^^ I do this with the actual bridge that I'm going to use. Put it on a couple of little wood blocks the height of the studs and bushing and set the neck angle so the FP touches the tops. Mine end up a little higher than Peegoo's

 

[dspellman1]

Hey all. I'm starting to plan a new guitar build and I'm thinking of going with a set neck this time, which would be a first for me. So, I thought I'd do a call out for some advice on this. I'll also be doing a deep dive into my guitar building books.

Questions:

Will this be much more difficult than a Fender style bolt on?

When is a non-0 neck angle required?

Other than being associated with cheap instruments, is a scarf joint all that bad? Are there other methods you'd suggest?

Is there a neck joint style you've had good/bad luck with?

Any jigs I should look at making?

Bonus question: does a tune-o-matic have to be angled? That one's always confused me.

Is neck-through easier than set neck?

I dunno if neck-through is easier than set neck, but all the important measurements are done on the neck-through before the body sides go on. Easily my first choice (neck-through) over a set neck.

TOM bridges are usually angled because it makes intonation easier.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Since I'm bored I though I would just post the sequence that I use when I do a les paul style long tenon set neck. I use a 1 x 3 piece of manhogany 36 inch long, I can get everything out of that with little scrap

Do the scarfed head and stack blocks for the heel. There are lots of threads about scarfed heads, just be aware that things want to skate around on the slippery glue. Route the truss rod channel while you've got square sides (the blue tape is the end of the channel



Make the body and angle the neck extension per your calculations or plans. LP's are typically 3-1/2 to 4-1/2 degrees



Transfer that angle to your neck heel



lay out all the other cuts



and cut the heel "cheeks"


Build a template for the tenon, clamp or screw it to the guitar, drill out waste and route






Cut everything on the neck that you can using the flat square sides



Now you can start carving your neck using whatever method you like. I use a combination of facets and templates, spoke shave and scraper.

Floss the cheeks so the fit nicely




I've come to the end of the number of pictures I can post so I'll start another one

 

[Freeman Keller]

Continuing the set neck

Clamp the neck into the pocket and route the neck pickup cavity. The neck extends under the pup to get more gluing surface




Another view you can see the channel running at an angle thru the pickup cavities for wires to the switch and pups



I build the fretboard separately from the neck, time to do that. Headplate, veneer, inlay double acting truss rod, binding




Fret it




Finally clamp it all together again and double check the geometry. Last chance (this happens to be a differen guitar, I didn;t have one of this stage for the lester). The bridge is sitting on two little blocks of wood that emulate the posts and inserts, this would be the lowest it could go



Glue the neck to the body ("set it")



Glue the fretboard to the neck




And you've got yourself a set neck guitar

 

[Rigel7]

In my humble opinion, a "set neck" is one that is glued into the body of the guitar. It can be a variety of different joints but the important thing is that the geometry is "set". With acoustic guitars we talk about "resetting the neck" to change the neck geametry as the guitar ages.

The key to understanding the geometry of any guitar is that in most cases you want the fret plane to just touch the tops of the saddles when they are at their very lowest adjustment, that gives you enough adjustment to get good playable acation and still be within in the adjustment range of whatever bridge you choose.

I've written a little dissertation about how I think neck geometry works on two very different styles of guitars

Building for playability

Geometry 101 I’ve been thinking about doing this thread for quite a long time but several recent threads tell me this might be the time. If any of you have followed my ranting, er posting, you know that I am quite focused on the geometry of the guitar. I frankly don’t care what your guitar...

www.tdpri.com

To your specific question:

1- your guitar building books should include Melvyn Hiscock's Make Your own Electric Guitar He answers a lot of them for you

2- it is definitely more difficult than a screw on neck

3- neck angle is determined by your geometry. Zero is an angle and is perfectly acceptable. Classical guitars even have negative angles.

4 - I use scarf joints on all of my heads. It is much stronger that a one piece neck and save a considerable amount of wood. I don't associate it with cheap instrurments at all

5- dovetail joints are elegant but difficult for a beginner to understand and get the angle correct. I personally don't like full width tenons, they are poorly supported and hard go make them lookd good as they flair into the body. Stay away from the Gibson "short tenon". I've never repaired a long tenon, did have to repair a short one (and told the owner that it will probably fail again).

6- I make jigs for cutting the scarf angle (I use 14 degrees) and I make templates for the tenon. If I'm doing a dovetail I have a special jig. One good thing to think about is making as many cuts as possible with the sides of your neck blank square and parallel. The minute you start cutting angles things get harder.

7- If you are talking about angling a ToM bridge with respect to the center line, yes. They do not have enough travel to compensate the strings if they are installed perpendicular. If you are talking about the stud being angled with respect to the top, no. You want the studs perpendicular to the top.

8- Neck thru is quite a bit harder to build because you will have to cut the angle at the beginning and deal with the area at the body joint. They are also longer and awkward to deal with on your workbench. Hiscock has a neck thru as one of the guitars he builds (also a set neck and a screw on), you can see some of the issues.

My collection *does* include the Hiscock book. He's much clearer than Koch. I'll have to study up on it in the next couple days and make a game plan.

What I mean about the scarf joints is often they're associated with imports, or even Chibsons. But from a building stand point I do see their value.

For the ToM what I mean is like on a 335 the treble side will be angled up closer to the neck (or the bass side the bridge, however we want to look at it) where as in Fender land a Jazzmaster's bridge is straight.

I don't think I'd be dovetailing, I'll probably stick with a tenon of some kind.

I think after I brush up on my reading I might have questions. There's always stuff I can't quite visualize.

You've been incredibly helpful, the LP build really helps! (Not to take anything away from anyone else that chipped in).

I probably get some pine and do a couple run throughs before I try it with something pricier!

 

[Moodivarius]

Freeman & Marty should have answered your questions.

Both where great help when I built my first set-neck guitar.

Dive in. You will have great mentors here to help you through every step of the way.



Scott

 

[Freeman Keller]

My collection *does* include the Hiscock book. He's much clearer than Koch. I'll have to study up on it in the next couple days and make a game plan.

What I mean about the scarf joints is often they're associated with imports, or even Chibsons. But from a building stand point I do see their value.

For the ToM what I mean is like on a 335 the treble side will be angled up closer to the neck (or the bass side the bridge, however we want to look at it) where as in Fender land a Jazzmaster's bridge is straight.

I don't think I'd be dovetailing, I'll probably stick with a tenon of some kind.

I think after I brush up on my reading I might have questions. There's always stuff I can't quite visualize.

You've been incredibly helpful, the LP build really helps! (Not to take anything away from anyone else that chipped in).

I probably get some pine and do a couple run throughs before I try it with something pricier!

Two quick clarifications -

Scarf joints eliminates most of the issues associated with sawn neck angled headstocks (the so called Gibson neck failures). They are very strong, can have the truss rod adjuster in the head, and is not wasteful of wood like sawn necks are. Its interesting that when a Gibson neck falls on the floor and breaks we sort of make a glued joint very similar to a scarf.

The Tom bridge does not have enough travel to full compensate the normal gauges of strings if it is perpendicular to the center line. If you run the StewMac fret calculator for whatever scale you will be using at the bottom it tells you how to locate all of their bridges for that scale. I ran it for the typical Gibson scale of 24.625 and it says

• Tune-o-matic style bridges 24.710" from nut to center of treble-side post. Mount bass-side post 1/16"-1/8" further from the nut.

We can discuss this more if you don't understand.

Here is a ToM on a 335 clone. Note that it is slanted the other way, its a lefty



Also I mentioned dovetail as one of the possible neck joints because it is used on so many acoustics and hollow bodies. I'm not sure exactly what configuration you are building so I mentioned it. Most of the time "set neck" for an electric means some sort of M&T.

If you do plan to make a 12 string there are a whole lot of little details that need to be thought through. I can help.

 

[wadeeinkauf]

As Scott said. The same was true for me. Freeman & Marty and others here gave me great support on my first set neck.

So the question is....set neck or bolt on, does it make a difference? As Freeman will attest you will be forced to get the geometry right when you glue in that neck. Also, with a setneck you will have a truss rod adjusted at the headstock. For the way I build, with the rods I use, this moves the maximum relief bend closer to nut, which seems to allow for better action. The transition from body to neck was a challenge for me. I tried several. If you are building with a body like a tele the coolest transition I found was on the Waylon Jennings fender custom shop tuff dog tele. It was the inspiration for one of my builds below.

Tuff Dog inspired.


Of all my builds, this is the one I play the most. Bill and Becky's take on a noise free P90.


This 1 inch drop top allowed for a very rounded body carve.

 

[Rigel7]

@Freeman Keller I may hit you up for 12 string advice when I get deeper into my plans. Going through the Hiscock book now. He cleared up my scarf confusion - I was thinking of the one you see on cheap guitars where its an obvious line a few frets down the neck. The version he shows is kind of hidden by the headstock angle. Is this your method as well? It's slightly confusing because the actual neck he makes is Gibson style - carved out of one block. Thanks again!

 

[Rigel7]

@wadeeinkauf Those are gorgeous!
I'm not sure I'd get as advanced as the Tuff Dog, I just want to try something outside my current skill set, break out of the box of Leo.

[The Tuff Dog was actually Merle Haggard. My leather Tele and I will let it slide, but Waylon might have been miffed. Merle cleaned him out in a poker game once and Waylon never forgave him. ]

 

[Rigel7]

Which scarfing style would you follow?
Waring & Raymond seem to suggest "A" will lead to an uncurable buzz, while Hiscock suggests both but notes "B" wastes less wood.

 

[wadeeinkauf]

@wadeeinkauf Those are gorgeous!
I'm not sure I'd get as advanced as the Tuff Dog, I just want to try something outside my current skill set, break out of the box of Leo.

[The Tuff Dog was actually Merle Haggard. My leather Tele and I will let it slide, but Waylon might have been miffed. Merle cleaned him out in a poker game once and Waylon never forgave him. ]

Of course the Tuff Dog is a Merle Haggard signature model. Must have had Waylon and Willie on the brain. And I have not even been in Luckenbach Texas!